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Post by mikey on Dec 8, 2021 14:05:47 GMT -8
Today's drivers aren't slaves to engineering - they are slaves to the commercial interests they drive for. For the most part their contracts forbid them from participating in any other form of racing. My 'racing heart' goes back to the days of Stewart, Andretti et.al. - where they would drive anything with wheels - F1, IndyCar, NASCAR, LeMans, CanAm - ANYTHING. Today's drivers are made to be commercial slaves to a single form of the sport in most cases. In the NASCAR world, Kyle Larson has become a sort of 'throw back' to the olde days - driving Sprints and Midgets etc. on his non-NASCAR days. I suspect Kubica's accident while rallying was the final nail in the coffin of broader participation. Too much invested in the drivers. And the way to change that is to only pay them for days they are in F1, if the Team has the next 3 days, week, 2 weeks, month, etc off your time is yours but you will NOT be getting a check from them to cover that time. Yes you are contracted to drive for us and no other Team but No more 20 million dollar contracts but instead pay for playing and LOTS AND LOTS of incentives, ie you come in with a bruised leg and can't pass the get out of the car test go home as you aren't driving or getting paid. You finish in last place because you screwed up here's your basic 1k have a nice 3 days off. That would also lead to intense video sessions post-race as they go thru the list of incentives for or against you. The NFL, NBA and even CEO's have gone that way for everything above their negotiated base pay. CEO's for how much they make the company greener and whether the changes actually work or not. As an aside when the NBA player refused to get his Covid shot his Teammates lobbied the Team to give him an exemption as he is very good at passing the ball to someone who is open, meaning their incentive pay goes down if he can't play.  |
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Post by pushtopass on Dec 8, 2021 14:33:06 GMT -8
I suspect Kubica's accident while rallying was the final nail in the coffin of broader participation. Too much invested in the drivers. And the way to change that is to only pay them for days they are in F1, if the Team has the next 3 days, week, 2 weeks, month, etc off your time is yours but you will NOT be getting a check from them to cover that time. Yes you are contracted to drive for us and no other Team but No more 20 million dollar contracts but instead pay for playing and LOTS AND LOTS of incentives, ie you come in with a bruised leg and can't pass the get out of the car test go home as you aren't driving or getting paid. You finish in last place because you screwed up here's your basic 1k have a nice 3 days off. That would also lead to intense video sessions post-race as they go thru the list of incentives for or against you. The NFL, NBA and even CEO's have gone that way for everything above their negotiated base pay. CEO's for how much they make the company greener and whether the changes actually work or not. As an aside when the NBA player refused to get his Covid shot his Teammates lobbied the Team to give him an exemption as he is very good at passing the ball to someone who is open, meaning their incentive pay goes down if he can't play. Not sure that would work because 1) they make a fair amount of money, 2) they all think they are indestructible, and 3) the way the testing is limited, each driver with a superlicense is difficult to replace. So perhaps having a stronger reserve driver program would help the team, anyway. Right now I think teams are more worried about losing the driver than the driver is about losing a paycheck (for the top drivers, anyway). |
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Post by pushtopass on Dec 8, 2021 14:34:16 GMT -8
And Max had a significantly faster earlier in the season. So he didn't need to overdrive. Oh wait, when Lewis wins it is because of the car and when Max wins it is because of Max. I forgot; sorry. As per policy, you completely don't understand what I'm talking about. At some point you should really do some track driving or maybe even head to a karting track to understand what racing is all about. When the Mercedes was behind on pace midway in the season Lewis over drove and we saw the mistakes he and the team made as a result. Anyone who's going to win the WDC in a yin and yang season like this needs to overdrive the car at certain points and take significant risks to maximize results. But in the end the faster car is always going win no matter who is driving or over driving it. Lewis has the significantly faster car right now and has had it for the past four races. Thus he has won three and is probably going to win them all. I have done a fair amount of track driving and driving karts. I also flagged for a number of years. Just FYI. |
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Post by mmi16 on Dec 8, 2021 15:43:51 GMT -8
And the way to change that is to only pay them for days they are in F1, if the Team has the next 3 days, week, 2 weeks, month, etc off your time is yours but you will NOT be getting a check from them to cover that time. Yes you are contracted to drive for us and no other Team but No more 20 million dollar contracts but instead pay for playing and LOTS AND LOTS of incentives, ie you come in with a bruised leg and can't pass the get out of the car test go home as you aren't driving or getting paid. You finish in last place because you screwed up here's your basic 1k have a nice 3 days off. That would also lead to intense video sessions post-race as they go thru the list of incentives for or against you. The NFL, NBA and even CEO's have gone that way for everything above their negotiated base pay. CEO's for how much they make the company greener and whether the changes actually work or not. As an aside when the NBA player refused to get his Covid shot his Teammates lobbied the Team to give him an exemption as he is very good at passing the ball to someone who is open, meaning their incentive pay goes down if he can't play. Not sure that would work because 1) they make a fair amount of money, 2) they all think they are indestructible, and 3) the way the testing is limited, each driver with a superlicense is difficult to replace. So perhaps having a stronger reserve driver program would help the team, anyway. Right now I think teams are more worried about losing the driver than the driver is about losing a paycheck (for the top drivers, anyway). Personally - Teams should have to field 3 cars. Two 'hired guns' as the season long 'Team' drivers and 3rd car for local 'hot shoes' the up and coming generation of 'funded' drivers. Such 3rd drivers would be limited to participating in no more than 1/4 of the yearly schedule for any individual team. Yes the track will be more crowded - real drivers deal with traffic, posers wreck. |
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Post by boiler on Dec 8, 2021 17:27:51 GMT -8
Another thought I have about the current state of bespoke drivers, beyond technology the handling characteristics between the different classes have increased significantly in the last 50 years due to downforce. If your an F1 driver jumping in a Cup car or lower class sports car is night and day different than it was in the 60s. You can argue Montoya never really did much to move the needle in Nascar after spending so much time in high downforce open wheel cars. Jimmy had a hell of a tough year moving from tanks to nimble high downforce Indycars.
I agree the contacts have done a lot to take away those learned skills the top drivers had through the 80s because they were allowed to learn them without fear of breaching a contract and with the money they get paid today I understand why those contracts are in place.
I guess the ROC is the best compromise for the drivers to show their skills in varying forms of disciplines I just wish they would go back to the open world format instead of the stadium format they have now.
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Post by mmi16 on Dec 8, 2021 18:36:40 GMT -8
Another thought I have about the current state of bespoke drivers, beyond technology the handling characteristics between the different classes have increased significantly in the last 50 years due to downforce. If your an F1 driver jumping in a Cup car or lower class sports car is night and day different than it was in the 60s. You can argue Montoya never really did much to move the needle in Nascar after spending so much time in high downforce open wheel cars. Jimmy had a hell of a tough year moving from tanks to nimble high downforce Indycars. I agree the contacts have done a lot to take away those learned skills the top drivers had through the 80s because they were allowed to learn them without fear of breaching a contract and with the money they get paid today I understand why those contracts are in place. I guess the ROC is the best compromise for the drivers to show their skills in varying forms of disciplines I just wish they would go back to the open world format instead of the stadium format they have now. As a Olde Phart - I don't learn things as quickly or as easily as I did when I was younger. I feature that pro drivers not attempting to switch disciplines until later in their adult lives - aren't picking up the new discipline as quickly as they would have had the encountered it 10 or 15 years earlier in their careers. Admittedly my version of the 'Glory Years' of racing are the late 60's to the middle 70's. Years when horsepower and mechanical grip were king and aerodynamics were first gaining a foothold in racing. I would venture it was easier for drivers to cross series lines as the basic feel of when the cars were 'crossing the line' would have been similar. Once you throw aero grip on top of mechanical grip the feel equation changes beyond calculation. |
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jmjgt
Member
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Post by jmjgt on Dec 8, 2021 18:55:20 GMT -8
Another thought I have about the current state of bespoke drivers, beyond technology the handling characteristics between the different classes have increased significantly in the last 50 years due to downforce. If your an F1 driver jumping in a Cup car or lower class sports car is night and day different than it was in the 60s. You can argue Montoya never really did much to move the needle in Nascar after spending so much time in high downforce open wheel cars. Jimmy had a hell of a tough year moving from tanks to nimble high downforce Indycars. I agree the contacts have done a lot to take away those learned skills the top drivers had through the 80s because they were allowed to learn them without fear of breaching a contract and with the money they get paid today I understand why those contracts are in place. I guess the ROC is the best compromise for the drivers to show their skills in varying forms of disciplines I just wish they would go back to the open world format instead of the stadium format they have now. As a Olde Phart - I don't learn things as quickly or as easily as I did when I was younger. I feature that pro drivers not attempting to switch disciplines until later in their adult lives - aren't picking up the new discipline as quickly as they would have had the encountered it 10 or 15 years earlier in their careers. Admittedly my version of the 'Glory Years' of racing are the late 60's to the middle 70's. Years when horsepower and mechanical grip were king and aerodynamics were first gaining a foothold in racing. I would venture it was easier for drivers to cross series lines as the basic feel of when the cars were 'crossing the line' would have been similar. Once you throw aero grip on top of mechanical grip the feel equation changes beyond calculation. To me the defining moment was when drivers started specializing in one discipline in the 70's, that's when the they started building the close relationships with mechanics and engineers that led us to where we are today. You simply can't waste brain cells across multi series while another driver pours all their effort into a singular goal, you're just putting yourself steps behind. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Dec 9, 2021 7:24:24 GMT -8
All of this makes what Alonso did in his two off years that much more impressive, imho ... and how quickly he got back up to speed on his return to F1, when so many said he was too old, had been away too long, the comparison to Michael, etc.
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Post by truenorth on Dec 9, 2021 9:18:03 GMT -8
Laus Meijer:  |
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Post by olderguysrule on Dec 9, 2021 10:45:10 GMT -8
Another thought I have about the current state of bespoke drivers, beyond technology the handling characteristics between the different classes have increased significantly in the last 50 years due to downforce. If your an F1 driver jumping in a Cup car or lower class sports car is night and day different than it was in the 60s. You can argue Montoya never really did much to move the needle in Nascar after spending so much time in high downforce open wheel cars. Jimmy had a hell of a tough year moving from tanks to nimble high downforce Indycars. I agree the contacts have done a lot to take away those learned skills the top drivers had through the 80s because they were allowed to learn them without fear of breaching a contract and with the money they get paid today I understand why those contracts are in place. I guess the ROC is the best compromise for the drivers to show their skills in varying forms of disciplines I just wish they would go back to the open world format instead of the stadium format they have now. As a Olde Phart - I don't learn things as quickly or as easily as I did when I was younger. I feature that pro drivers not attempting to www.reuters.com/article/us-motor-racing-prix-gorilla-idUSHAR26992720070802switch disciplines until later in their adult lives - aren't picking up the new discipline as quickly as they would have had the encountered it 10 or 15 years earlier in their careers. Admittedly my version of the 'Glory Years' of racing are the late 60's to the middle 70's. Years when horsepower and mechanical grip were king and aerodynamics were first gaining a foothold in racing. I would venture it was easier for drivers to cross series lines as the basic feel of when the cars were 'crossing the line' would have been similar. Once you throw aero grip on top of mechanical grip the feel equation changes beyond calculation. back in the day when kimi raced for ferrari he did a speed boat race dressed up as a gorilla. :-) and then another time he did a sonwmobile race and signed up as James Hunt. www.reuters.com/article/us-motor-racing-prix-gorilla-idUSHAR26992720070802 |
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Post by overboost on Dec 9, 2021 11:44:50 GMT -8
Kimi did a James Hunt helmet as well:  |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Dec 9, 2021 13:24:26 GMT -8
Laus Meijer: Yep. Thus the nonsensical "I was confused, so I slowed down" nonsense he spouted to any microphone/camera he could find. |
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Post by mikey on Dec 9, 2021 16:05:32 GMT -8
Laus Meijer: Yep. Thus the nonsensical "I was confused, so I slowed down" nonsense he spouted to any microphone/camera he could find. You pass the person you fricking idiot Lulu!!! NEVER EVER let an opponent recover from an error, you stay focused and you take advantage of their unforced error and then just smile when you win and they don't!! Now in this particular case Lulu would have been SHOCKED to see Max pass him right back again in the next DRS Zone but that's another matter. The ONE thing you NEVER EVER EVER do is involve YOU AND YOUR CAR in your opponents problems on track!! |
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Post by pushtopass on Dec 9, 2021 16:11:01 GMT -8
Yep. Thus the nonsensical "I was confused, so I slowed down" nonsense he spouted to any microphone/camera he could find. You pass the person you fricking idiot Lulu!!! NEVER EVER let an opponent recover from an error, you stay focused and you take advantage of their unforced error and then just smile when you win and they don't!! Now in this particular case Lulu would have been SHOCKED to see Max pass him right back again in the next DRS Zone but that's another matter. The ONE thing you NEVER EVER EVER do is involve YOU AND YOUR CAR in your opponents problems on track!! You should send Lewis a note. He is pretty inexperienced and your advice could really make the difference between him winning his eight WDC or not! I am pretty sure he will appreciate your guidance. |
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Post by mmi16 on Dec 9, 2021 16:14:41 GMT -8
Yep. Thus the nonsensical "I was confused, so I slowed down" nonsense he spouted to any microphone/camera he could find. You pass the person you fricking idiot Lulu!!! NEVER EVER let an opponent recover from an error, you stay focused and you take advantage of their unforced error and then just smile when you win and they don't!! Now in this particular case Lulu would have been SHOCKED to see Max pass him right back again in the next DRS Zone but that's another matter. The ONE thing you NEVER EVER EVER do is involve YOU AND YOUR CAR in your opponents problems on track!! If the car ahead of you slows unexpectedly - you pass them. If you run into the car ahead because he brake checked you - YOU ARE THE ONE AT FAULT, because you lost your focus. |
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Post by overboost on Dec 9, 2021 16:15:24 GMT -8
^^ He definitely looked inexperienced p2p.
And after the race he was completely exhausted, maybe fatigue and confusion was his problem during the race.
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Post by pushtopass on Dec 10, 2021 4:24:07 GMT -8
^^ He definitely looked inexperienced p2p. And after the race he was completely exhausted, maybe fatigue and confusion was his problem during the race. Well, he had set a few fastest laps in a row in a damaged car with worn tires in the last few laps so it wouldn't surprise me if he was tired. Again, y'all can believe what you want but the stewards and other drivers side with Lewis. What Max did was erratic and unexpected while driving in the middle of the track (rather than pulling to one side). |
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Korean cable TV is lousy. no more NASCAR nor NHRA