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Post by hairyscotsman on Dec 6, 2021 10:18:52 GMT -8
Exactly. Max was very obviously slowing, and not suddenly. If Lewis isn't stupidly right up Max's gearbox, Max can't brake check him and the collision doesn't happen. Max was slowing gradually, allowing Hamilton to get right up behind him, and THEN slammed on the brakes. Recall these cars have no brake lights, unlike passenger cars. Max was smack in the middle of the track. If a car shown a blue flag did to Max what Max did to Lewis, he'd be whining on the radio. Doesn't Max have the responsibility to give the place back safely? Isn't he good enough to know that Lewis is RIGHT behind him before he slams on the brakes? And of course, if Lewis finished second to Max, the next race would still be a showdown. So none of this is logical. LOL. Again, I never said Max didn't brake check Lewis, and if he did, the penalty is deserved, which I also said. But you knew that. Max slowed plenty, and gradually enough that Lewis could easily fly right by, but instead he chose to play the game with Max and get right on his gearbox. He had a role in it too. That's all I'm saying. Lewis wasn't confused (lol, possibly the weakest premise ever). He was playing along. |
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Post by pushtopass on Dec 6, 2021 10:38:00 GMT -8
But brake checking is the problem; you are not allowed to do that. Which is why he got a penalty, even if it was totally meaningless. You said "not suddenly" so I was confused. Because telemetry clearly showed he stabbed the brakes hard when Lewis was behind him. Again, remember that Lewis hadn't been told that Max was giving up the position so perhaps he wasn't totally confused why Max was slowing in the middle of the track where Lewis can't see if there is something on the track, but it isn't unlikely. Would you put it past Max to try to sucker Lewis in and then close the door? Lewis is wary and driving appropriately (backing out instead of being hit).
Curious why you say "if he did"?
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Post by Red_Hercules on Dec 6, 2021 10:50:17 GMT -8
The subjective interpretation of what we saw has entered into this discussion.
You say, and the marshals say that data proves that Max decelerated by a stab of the brakes of 2.4G.
OF COURSE.
But the reason Max decelerated was that he was trying not to go PAST the timing line that activates DRS before Lewis passed him.
In a world where all things are equal, the fault lies with F1 and FIA for coming up with the DRS system.
In a fair world, the fault lies with Lewis Hamilton. If he's such a great driver he would have avoided running into the back of Verstappen. Unless of course, Lewis knew exactly what was going on, and just did not want to get in front of Max at that point.
I seem to remember that Sebastien Vettel also run into the back of someone in a race... but in his case, HE WAS punished and not the driver in the front.
Regardless, the farce which is this year's WDC in F1 has already been decided. And I congratulate Lewis Hamilton for his 8th WDC and Mercedes for being such a great constructor.
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Post by Carlo_Carrera on Dec 6, 2021 10:52:01 GMT -8
The subjective interpretation of what we saw has entered into this discussion. You say, and the marshals say that data proves that Max decelerated by a stab of the brakes of 2.4G. OF COURSE. But the reason Max decelerated was that he was trying not to go PAST the timing line that activates DRS before Lewis passed him. In a world where all things are equal, the fault lies with F1 and FIA for coming up with the DRS system. In a fair world, the fault lies with Lewis Hamilton. If he's such a great driver he would have avoided running into the back of Verstappen. Unless of course, Lewis knew exactly what was going on, and just did not want to get in front of Max at that point. I seem to remember that Sebastien Vettel also run into the back of someone in a race... but in his case, HE WAS punished and not the driver in the front. Regardless, the farce which is this year's WDC in F1 has already been decided. And I congratulate Lewis Hamilton for his 8th WDC and Mercedes for being such a great constructor. Spot on. |
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Post by Pistola on Dec 6, 2021 10:53:59 GMT -8
LOL. Again, I never said Max didn't brake check Lewis, and if he did, the penalty is deserved, which I also said. But you knew that. Max slowed plenty and gradually enough that Lewis could easily fly right by, but instead he chose to play the game with Max and get right on his gearbox. He had a role in it too. That's all I'm saying. Lewis wasn't confused. He was playing along. As an alternative think of Saudi as a deciding race, Max becomes champion if Hamilton DNF's, what is the on track reality for either driver and what is the FIA's call if Hamilton had taken off his wheel and not the endplate? |
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jmjgt
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Post by jmjgt on Dec 6, 2021 10:54:27 GMT -8
Exactly. Max was very obviously slowing, and not suddenly. If Lewis isn't stupidly right up Max's gearbox, Max can't brake check him and the collision doesn't happen. If you think that a sudden stab of the brakes at 2.4g is not "suddenly" then we just define things differently. Max was slowing gradually, allowing Hamilton to get right up behind him, and THEN slammed on the brakes. Recall these cars have no brake lights, unlike passenger cars. Max was smack in the middle of the track. If a car shown a blue flag did to Max what Max did to Lewis, he'd be whining on the radio. Doesn't Max have the responsibility to give the place back safely? Isn't he good enough to know that Lewis is RIGHT behind him before he slams on the brakes? And of course, if Lewis finished second to Max, the next race would still be a showdown. So none of this is logical. You are aware an F1 car will decelerate at 1.5 G as soon as you take your foot off the throttle aren't you? 2.5 G is moderate brake pressure at best. Max initially moved to the right and backed out of the throttle, Lulu saw that and hit the breaks which confused Max who was looking in his mirrors expecting the pass. Remember, They were both were still moving in excess of 140 MPH plus, Max looked forward and probably though he was getting too close to the wall on the right and moved left, that's when Hamilton woke up and went for the pass. Also at the point where they hit the track narrows a bit because there's an access gap in the wall on the left. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Dec 6, 2021 11:04:45 GMT -8
LOL. Again, I never said Max didn't brake check Lewis, and if he did, the penalty is deserved, which I also said. But you knew that. Max slowed plenty and gradually enough that Lewis could easily fly right by, but instead he chose to play the game with Max and get right on his gearbox. He had a role in it too. That's all I'm saying. Lewis wasn't confused. He was playing along. As an alternative think of Saudi as a deciding race, Max becomes champion if Hamilton DNF's, what is the on track reality for either driver and what is the FIA's call if Hamilton had taken off his wheel and not the endplate? No idea. It's the FIA, so it's basically a lottery. |
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Post by Pistola on Dec 6, 2021 11:59:50 GMT -8
As an alternative think of Saudi as a deciding race, Max becomes champion if Hamilton DNF's, what is the on track reality for either driver and what is the FIA's call if Hamilton had taken off his wheel and not the endplate? No idea. It's the FIA, so it's basically a lottery. Cop out. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Dec 6, 2021 12:02:58 GMT -8
No idea. It's the FIA, so it's basically a lottery. Cop out. Bullshit. It's not a cop out. I honestly don't know what the penalty would be. If I claimed to know the answer to that, I'd be just as full of shit as you are in calling it a cop out. You asked the question. If you know the answer, then out with it, or fuck off with that kind of stupid, bullshit response. |
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Post by Pistola on Dec 6, 2021 12:10:22 GMT -8
Bullshit. It's not a cop out. I honestly don't know what the penalty would be. If I claimed to know the answer to that, I'd be just as full of shit as you are in calling it a cop out. You asked the question. If you know the answer, then out with it, or fuck off with that kind of stupid, bullshit response. Historically there is an answer, stop your whining. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Dec 6, 2021 12:12:38 GMT -8
Bullshit. It's not a cop out. I honestly don't know what the penalty would be. If I claimed to know the answer to that, I'd be just as full of shit as you are in calling it a cop out. You asked the question. If you know the answer, then out with it, or fuck off with that kind of stupid, bullshit response. Historically there is an answer, stop your whining. OK, then why don't you let us in on it and stop the bullshit. Whining? Fuck that. I have no obligation to go searching for your precedent in a haystack of races and penalties. You ask a question I don't know the answer to, but somehow that's a cop out, and whining? LOL. That's some seriously stupid shit, and you should feel bad for posting it. Like I said, if you want to make a point, then out with it. Otherwise, you're just trolling. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Dec 6, 2021 12:19:18 GMT -8
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Post by Pistola on Dec 6, 2021 12:33:23 GMT -8
Historically there is an answer, stop your whining. OK, then why don't you let us in on it and stop the bullshit. Whining? Fuck that. I have no obligation to go searching for your precedent in a haystack of races and penalties. You ask a question I don't know the answer to, but somehow that's a cop out, and whining? LOL. That's some seriously stupid shit, and you should feel bad for posting it. Like I said, if you want to make a point, then out with it. Otherwise, you're just trolling. Jeebus relax a bit. The cop out was meant in fun, not any insult. You do know how to have fun anymore don't you? |
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Post by Pistola on Dec 6, 2021 12:33:47 GMT -8
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Post by hairyscotsman on Dec 6, 2021 12:35:35 GMT -8
OK, then why don't you let us in on it and stop the bullshit. Whining? Fuck that. I have no obligation to go searching for your precedent in a haystack of races and penalties. You ask a question I don't know the answer to, but somehow that's a cop out, and whining? LOL. That's some seriously stupid shit, and you should feel bad for posting it. Like I said, if you want to make a point, then out with it. Otherwise, you're just trolling. Jeebus relax a bit. The cop out was meant in fun, not any insult. You do know how to have fun anymore don't you? Cop out. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Dec 6, 2021 12:36:57 GMT -8
And you still haven't answered, so ... just trolling then, I guess. That's pitiful. The REAL cop out here is you asking a question that even you still won't answer, and then getting all sandy when I say I don't know the answer. And then claiming it was all just a joke after responding completely seriously with the 'whining' bullshit. Man up and own it ffs. |
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Post by Pistola on Dec 6, 2021 12:38:47 GMT -8
Jeebus relax a bit. The cop out was meant in fun, not any insult. You do know how to have fun anymore don't you? Cop out. Apparently not. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Dec 6, 2021 12:39:54 GMT -8
Then answer your own question that you cried about me not answering. Or stop trolling. |
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Post by Pistola on Dec 6, 2021 12:42:06 GMT -8
Then answer your own question that you cried about me not answering. Or stop trolling. It's easy. I don't believe the FIA will allow a driver at fault to become a champion. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Dec 6, 2021 12:52:29 GMT -8
Then answer your own question that you cried about me not answering. Or stop trolling. It's easy. I don't believe the FIA will allow a driver at fault to become a champion. OK. That's what you think, and it might be true, but it's still just an opinion. Where's the historical precedent for that (which you complained about me not knowing)? The 'precedents', afaik, are Senna being penalized and fined for intentionally crashing out his main WDC rival in 1989, and Senna winning the 1990 championship by intentionally crashing out his main WDC competitior, with no penalty. So what's the precedent then? |
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Korean cable TV is lousy. no more NASCAR nor NHRA