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Post by thirddegree on Jun 14, 2021 10:57:24 GMT -8
Somewhat ironically, Bottas' stock was never higher than when he was at Williams.
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Post by Carlo_Carrera on Jun 14, 2021 11:14:28 GMT -8
The drivers are important, just not in the ways you think they are. I think you do not get the sense of what I think :-) I mean, I know the car is important. And if an average driver gets into a far superior car then sure, the car is important. My assertion is that drivers also have to "fit" within a team. Not just showing up, driving the car, walking away. They need to provide accurate feedback on how the car is handling and that means knowing something about how this particular car works mechanically and aerodynamically. That is also important and one of the ways that you get, or maintain, a superior car. It also means race craft. Managing fuel, managing tires, turning off the magic brake button, understanding how a race develops. These are all why a person who may be "fast" struggles for a few years. Tsunoda for instance. Even Max when he arrived. You have stated something like 90 technical, 10 driver. I would put it closer to 70/30. I also do not think it has changed substantially over the time or in any race series. Heck, this was discussed in a Tom Cruise movie more than 30 years ago. A superior driver in a piece of crap car likely will not win, and a moderate-level driver in a superior driver probably will. But I view the cars in F1 as quite overlapped as to what can be done over a season, such that while I do not expect a Haas driver this year to win, we can see what someone like Russell can do with a Williams. He puts it higher up the grid than his teammate and probably finishes better than it has a right to do. There have been a few years where Merc is clearly superior, but others recently where that is not the case. Other cars in those years (including this one) overlapped in the "car+team+driver = race winner" formula. Again, the drivers are important, just not in the ways you think they are. 70/30 in F1? Are you joking? Do you have any idea how an F1 team or any race for that matter operates?This conversation just became a complete waste of time.
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Post by pushtopass on Jun 14, 2021 13:11:13 GMT -8
I think you do not get the sense of what I think :-) I mean, I know the car is important. And if an average driver gets into a far superior car then sure, the car is important. My assertion is that drivers also have to "fit" within a team. Not just showing up, driving the car, walking away. They need to provide accurate feedback on how the car is handling and that means knowing something about how this particular car works mechanically and aerodynamically. That is also important and one of the ways that you get, or maintain, a superior car. It also means race craft. Managing fuel, managing tires, turning off the magic brake button, understanding how a race develops. These are all why a person who may be "fast" struggles for a few years. Tsunoda for instance. Even Max when he arrived. You have stated something like 90 technical, 10 driver. I would put it closer to 70/30. I also do not think it has changed substantially over the time or in any race series. Heck, this was discussed in a Tom Cruise movie more than 30 years ago. A superior driver in a piece of crap car likely will not win, and a moderate-level driver in a superior driver probably will. But I view the cars in F1 as quite overlapped as to what can be done over a season, such that while I do not expect a Haas driver this year to win, we can see what someone like Russell can do with a Williams. He puts it higher up the grid than his teammate and probably finishes better than it has a right to do. There have been a few years where Merc is clearly superior, but others recently where that is not the case. Other cars in those years (including this one) overlapped in the "car+team+driver = race winner" formula. Again, the drivers are important, just not in the ways you think they are. 70/30 in F1? Are you joking? Do you have any idea how an F1 team or any race for that matter operates?This conversation just became a complete waste of time. I will await your fact-based rebuttal.
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Post by Carlo_Carrera on Jun 14, 2021 13:26:39 GMT -8
Again, the drivers are important, just not in the ways you think they are. 70/30 in F1? Are you joking? Do you have any idea how an F1 team or any race for that matter operates?This conversation just became a complete waste of time. I will await your fact-based rebuttal. Perez now in a front runner car wins a race. Russell driving a Mercedes last year nearly takes pole and should have won. Bottas, the doormat, winning in a Mercedes occasionally. Leclerc moves to Ferrari from a back marker team and immediately starts taking poles and winning races. Turkish GP 2020 qualifying is wet mess the Racing point is a great car in the wet. Stroll takes pole, Perez, being from dry Mexico and not known as being a good wet driver, qualifies third. Their best qualifying as a team ever. Case closed. The car is 90% of the pace. You need to get a grip on reality.
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Post by struns on Jun 14, 2021 13:31:17 GMT -8
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Post by pushtopass on Jun 14, 2021 14:33:43 GMT -8
I will await your fact-based rebuttal. Perez now in a front runner car wins a race. Russell driving a Mercedes last year nearly takes pole and should have won. Bottas, the doormat, winning in a Mercedes occasionally. Leclerc moves to Ferrari from a back marker team and immediately starts taking poles and winning races. Turkish GP 2020 qualifying is wet mess the Racing point is a great car in the wet. Stroll takes pole, Perez, being from dry Mexico and not known as being a good wet driver, qualifies third. Their best qualifying as a team ever. Case closed. The car is 90% of the pace. You need to get a grip on reality. So why are they paying Bottas $10M/yr instead of paying Russell $1M/yr? You have said that Hamilton brings other things such as recognition by being a WDC, but does Bottas bring $9M of extras? Please enumerate these for us. Does Danny bring $10M worth of goodies in compared to Norris? I find it interesting that the budget cap is $145M and the Merc drivers salaries total just about 30% of that amount. I also note that Hamilton makes three times what Bottas does, and Max makes three times what Sergio does, so perhaps Bottas is 10% of the car's pace and Hamilton is 30%. I get that you think this, but the pay does not support that. And when the race in Turkey was run in wet but drying (complex) conditions what place did Stroll take? 9th! Meanwhile Hamilton finished the race 30 seconds ahead of second place. Points and money arrive on Sunday, not on Saturday. But go ahead, think what you want.
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Post by Carlo_Carrera on Jun 14, 2021 16:03:57 GMT -8
Perez now in a front runner car wins a race. Russell driving a Mercedes last year nearly takes pole and should have won. Bottas, the doormat, winning in a Mercedes occasionally. Leclerc moves to Ferrari from a back marker team and immediately starts taking poles and winning races. Turkish GP 2020 qualifying is wet mess the Racing point is a great car in the wet. Stroll takes pole, Perez, being from dry Mexico and not known as being a good wet driver, qualifies third. Their best qualifying as a team ever. Case closed. The car is 90% of the pace. You need to get a grip on reality. So why are they paying Bottas $10M/yr instead of paying Russell $1M/yr? You have said that Hamilton brings other things such as recognition by being a WDC, but does Bottas bring $9M of extras? Please enumerate these for us. Does Danny bring $10M worth of goodies in compared to Norris? I find it interesting that the budget cap is $145M and the Merc drivers salaries total just about 30% of that amount. I also note that Hamilton makes three times what Bottas does, and Max makes three times what Sergio does, so perhaps Bottas is 10% of the car's pace and Hamilton is 30%. I get that you think this, but the pay does not support that. And when the race in Turkey was run in wet but drying (complex) conditions what place did Stroll take? 9th! Meanwhile Hamilton finished the race 30 seconds ahead of second place. Points and money arrive on Sunday, not on Saturday. But go ahead, think what you want. A driver salary budget cap is in the works. And the money drivers are paid has very little to do with their true driving abilities because they can't show their true abilities until they luck out and get into a front running car. Bottas is the perfect example. He looked like a top prospect because the Williams was a decent car at that time but he gets into a true top car and now we see he is a doormat. The car is everything. Mercedes pay Bottas 10 million a year just keep Hamilton happy, literally. And Ricciardo is proven race winner and beat Max from time to time in a front running car, Norris has not proven that yet, thus the extra money to Ricciardo. And you are forgetting in the Turkey GP the track dried as the race went on so Stroll and Perez's car lost pace relative to the Mercedes which was clearly the dominate car in the dry. That is why Hamilton finished 30 seconds ahead. The car is everything.
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Post by mikey on Jun 14, 2021 19:07:27 GMT -8
Perez now in a front runner car wins a race. Russell driving a Mercedes last year nearly takes pole and should have won. Bottas, the doormat, winning in a Mercedes occasionally. Leclerc moves to Ferrari from a back marker team and immediately starts taking poles and winning races. Turkish GP 2020 qualifying is wet mess the Racing point is a great car in the wet. Stroll takes pole, Perez, being from dry Mexico and not known as being a good wet driver, qualifies third. Their best qualifying as a team ever. Case closed. The car is 90% of the pace. You need to get a grip on reality. So why are they paying Bottas $10M/yr instead of paying Russell $1M/yr? You have said that Hamilton brings other things such as recognition by being a WDC, but does Bottas bring $9M of extras? Please enumerate these for us. Does Danny bring $10M worth of goodies in compared to Norris? I find it interesting that the budget cap is $145M and the Merc drivers salaries total just about 30% of that amount. I also note that Hamilton makes three times what Bottas does, and Max makes three times what Sergio does, so perhaps Bottas is 10% of the car's pace and Hamilton is 30%. I get that you think this, but the pay does not support that. And when the race in Turkey was run in wet but drying (complex) conditions what place did Stroll take? 9th! Meanwhile Hamilton finished the race 30 seconds ahead of second place. Points and money arrive on Sunday, not on Saturday. But go ahead, think what you want. Bottas get 9 million to shut up and take all the abuse Mercedes wants to throw his way and give up his place to Lulu when he's told to do so. Bottas is good enough right now to be a rear gunner for Lulu meaning the Red Bulls etc get fewer Team points which is what the Team wants, their WCC.
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Post by pushtopass on Jun 15, 2021 4:52:51 GMT -8
So why are they paying Bottas $10M/yr instead of paying Russell $1M/yr? You have said that Hamilton brings other things such as recognition by being a WDC, but does Bottas bring $9M of extras? Please enumerate these for us. Does Danny bring $10M worth of goodies in compared to Norris? I find it interesting that the budget cap is $145M and the Merc drivers salaries total just about 30% of that amount. I also note that Hamilton makes three times what Bottas does, and Max makes three times what Sergio does, so perhaps Bottas is 10% of the car's pace and Hamilton is 30%. I get that you think this, but the pay does not support that. And when the race in Turkey was run in wet but drying (complex) conditions what place did Stroll take? 9th! Meanwhile Hamilton finished the race 30 seconds ahead of second place. Points and money arrive on Sunday, not on Saturday. But go ahead, think what you want. A driver salary budget cap is in the works. And the money drivers are paid has very little to do with their true driving abilities because they can't show their true abilities until they luck out and get into a front running car. Bottas is the perfect example. He looked like a top prospect because the Williams was a decent car at that time but he gets into a true top car and now we see he is a doormat. The car is everything. Mercedes pay Bottas 10 million a year just keep Hamilton happy, literally. And Ricciardo is proven race winner and beat Max from time to time in a front running car, Norris has not proven that yet, thus the extra money to Ricciardo. And you are forgetting in the Turkey GP the track dried as the race went on so Stroll and Perez's car lost pace relative to the Mercedes which was clearly the dominate car in the dry. That is why Hamilton finished 30 seconds ahead. The car is everything. IIRC Hamilton stayed on wet tires, making them work while everyone else pitted. That is why he won.
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Post by pushtopass on Jun 15, 2021 4:56:15 GMT -8
I guess we agree that Stroll must therefore be the best driver on the grid?
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Post by Carlo_Carrera on Jun 15, 2021 5:14:11 GMT -8
A driver salary budget cap is in the works. And the money drivers are paid has very little to do with their true driving abilities because they can't show their true abilities until they luck out and get into a front running car. Bottas is the perfect example. He looked like a top prospect because the Williams was a decent car at that time but he gets into a true top car and now we see he is a doormat. The car is everything. Mercedes pay Bottas 10 million a year just keep Hamilton happy, literally. And Ricciardo is proven race winner and beat Max from time to time in a front running car, Norris has not proven that yet, thus the extra money to Ricciardo. And you are forgetting in the Turkey GP the track dried as the race went on so Stroll and Perez's car lost pace relative to the Mercedes which was clearly the dominate car in the dry. That is why Hamilton finished 30 seconds ahead. The car is everything. IIRC Hamilton stayed on wet tires, making them work while everyone else pitted. That is why he won. Your recollection is wrong. Other drivers stayed out on worn intermediate and gained nothing. The track dried and Mercedes regained its dominate pace. The car is everything.
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Post by Carlo_Carrera on Jun 15, 2021 5:15:58 GMT -8
I guess we agree that Stroll must therefore be the best driver on the grid? No. We don't know how good Stroll and most other drivers really are because they are not in front running cars. Get it? The car is everything. It is the benchmark.
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Post by pushtopass on Jun 15, 2021 5:59:46 GMT -8
I guess we agree that Stroll must therefore be the best driver on the grid? No. We don't know how good Stroll and most other drivers really are because they are not in front running cars. Get it? The car is everything. It is the benchmark. Interesting; Hamilton sucks because he qualified poorly in Turkey but Stroll is not good even though he put his car on the pole? Interesting logic. Again, if the car is everything then why not hire me to drive for $100k/yr? Because it is not everything. Sure it is important. Funding levels look like it is about 70% of everything. Drivers who are good get a ton more money than those who are just okay. If you want to claim that teams throw money away just because they think some driver has a cool name or is good looking then that is your prerogative. Not supported by facts, of course.
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Post by pushtopass on Jun 15, 2021 6:03:51 GMT -8
I would love to hear anyone's theory why, if the car is everything, Bottas and his $10M salary was not booted for Latifi (who would run #2 and shut up about it, no problems Mikey!!) and his $1M salary.
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Post by Carlo_Carrera on Jun 15, 2021 6:13:39 GMT -8
No. We don't know how good Stroll and most other drivers really are because they are not in front running cars. Get it? The car is everything. It is the benchmark. Interesting; Hamilton sucks because he qualified poorly in Turkey but Stroll is not good even though he put his car on the pole? Interesting logic. Again, if the car is everything then why not hire me to drive for $100k/yr? Because it is not everything. Sure it is important. Funding levels look like it is about 70% of everything. Drivers who are good get a ton more money than those who are just okay. If you want to claim that teams throw money away just because they think some driver has a cool name or is good looking then that is your prerogative. Not supported by facts, of course. Dude you are bi-polar. I never said Hamilton sucks. I have explained why driver salaries are what they are several times. Read those comments, digest them and get over it. The car is everything but you still need a quality driver to get the most out it. Hamilton is a quality driver. Bottas is not. The drivers are important, just not in the ways you think they are.
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Post by Carlo_Carrera on Jun 15, 2021 6:16:30 GMT -8
I would love to hear anyone's theory why, if the car is everything, Bottas and his $10M salary was not booted for Latifi (who would run #2 and shut up about it, no problems Mikey!!) and his $1M salary. Latifi isn't good enough.
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Post by pushtopass on Jun 15, 2021 7:20:22 GMT -8
I would love to hear anyone's theory why, if the car is everything, Bottas and his $10M salary was not booted for Latifi (who would run #2 and shut up about it, no problems Mikey!!) and his $1M salary. Latifi isn't good enough. Your math is odd. If the driver is 10% and any driver on the F1 grid is in the top 0.1% or so of all race drivers in the world, I am surprised that Latifi is considered not good enough to drive the second mercedes and do well enough for $1M. What you are really saying, and have said, is that there are perhaps 3 or 4 drivers in the world who could have also won those several WDC in a row with the Mercedes. How you square that with "10% of the performance" is up to you. Best of luck with that.
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Post by Carlo_Carrera on Jun 15, 2021 8:22:15 GMT -8
Latifi isn't good enough. Your math is odd. If the driver is 10% and any driver on the F1 grid is in the top 0.1% or so of all race drivers in the world, I am surprised that Latifi is considered not good enough to drive the second mercedes and do well enough for $1M. What you are really saying, and have said, is that there are perhaps 3 or 4 drivers in the world who could have also won those several WDC in a row with the Mercedes. How you square that with "10% of the performance" is up to you. Best of luck with that. When did I ever say this? ....any driver on the F1 grid is in the top 0.1% or so....
And it is more like 6 or 7 current drivers could have done what Lewis did in the Mercedes. Rosberg winning a WDC proves it. The Mercedes cars of the past 8 years are the most dominate F1 has ever seen. That is a fact backed up by performance data. You are just pissed because deep down you know I'm correct.
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Post by pushtopass on Jun 15, 2021 14:04:41 GMT -8
Your math is odd. If the driver is 10% and any driver on the F1 grid is in the top 0.1% or so of all race drivers in the world, I am surprised that Latifi is considered not good enough to drive the second mercedes and do well enough for $1M. What you are really saying, and have said, is that there are perhaps 3 or 4 drivers in the world who could have also won those several WDC in a row with the Mercedes. How you square that with "10% of the performance" is up to you. Best of luck with that. When did I ever say this? ....any driver on the F1 grid is in the top 0.1% or so....
And it is more like 6 or 7 current drivers could have done what Lewis did in the Mercedes. Rosberg winning a WDC proves it. The Mercedes cars of the past 8 years are the most dominate F1 has ever seen. That is a fact backed up by performance data. You are just pissed because deep down you know I'm correct. I brought up 0.1% Do you disagree that these are the top of the top here in F1? Because if only 6 or 7 drivers could have done what Hamilton did that does not bear out that the driver is so little when so few in the world could achieve that feat. Rosberg beat Schumacher three years in a row as well so he was not a doormat. Then he lost 3 of 4 to Hamilton, generally by a fair amount. I mean seriously; I consider winning 3 out of 4 seasons to be pretty damn good. And the dominance was not the same every year. There was work to be done in some years. If you have anything, anything at all, to indicate where your 10% number comes from I'd love to hear it. Seriously! :-) I mean, I know these are just guesses but I have at least indicated why I think what I do.
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Post by Pistola on Jun 15, 2021 14:17:57 GMT -8
WTF...................................Isn't the title of this thread clear enough for you guys?
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