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Post by pushtopass on Sept 10, 2020 6:56:05 GMT -8
I know it's popular to bash Lewis as a prima donna who is flattered by his cars, but it is worth noting that he has spent his entire career with two teams. Meanwhile people like Vettel and Alonso keep moving. Clearly Lewis' talent outweighs any grief he causes a team (or perhaps he is not truly the prima donna so many claim). There is something to be said for that. Prost drove for four teams, including two stints with McLaren, from 1980 to 1993. Vettel will be joining his fourth team, excluding his one-off with BMW Sauber at Indy in 2007. Niki Lauda drove for five teams. Michael Schumacher drove for three teams excluding his one-off with Jordan. Senna drove for four teams. Nelson Piquet drove for four teams. Lewis is the rare exception, not the norm. Most top drivers do not spend their entire careers with two teams. That doesn't mean Lewis is all that more exceptional. He just happened to land in the right teams, at the right time. F1 careers are defined, partly, by timing and luck. I get it; that was my point. If he was such a PITA teams would push him out like Ferrari did with Vettel. After all, the driver is only a small part of success so why not find a driver who is just as good but not a PITA? The fact that these teams did not tells us something. I think the same about Grosjean; he must have some upsides we do not see or Haas would dump him. Rosberg is clearly a strong example of a good guy with good talent who teams wanted to retain. |
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Post by montybriscoe on Sept 10, 2020 6:57:26 GMT -8
I know it's popular to bash Lewis as a prima donna who is flattered by his cars, but it is worth noting that he has spent his entire career with two teams. Meanwhile people like Vettel and Alonso keep moving. Clearly Lewis' talent outweighs any grief he causes a team (or perhaps he is not truly the prima donna so many claim). There is something to be said for that. That's because Hamilton skipped the whole the whole Jr driver starting on a small team thing, he entered the sport in a team most others would have have to climb to. BTW, Rosberg only drove for two teams as well, as has Grosjean. Jimmy Clark spent his entire F1 career with one team, Lotus. 𤣠|
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Post by mmi16 on Sept 10, 2020 6:59:04 GMT -8
Vettel is damaged goods these days. I don't see him turning that around, especially in a 2nd-level team. In as much as Ferrari has transformed its car into a 3rd level team - Vettel is making a step up. |
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Post by mmi16 on Sept 10, 2020 6:59:56 GMT -8
That's because Hamilton skipped the whole the whole Jr driver starting on a small team thing, he entered the sport in a team most others would have have to climb to. BTW, Rosberg only drove for two teams as well, as has Grosjean. Jimmy Clark spent his entire F1 career with one team, Lotus. 𤣠and unfortunately he was killed in a Lotus. |
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Post by montybriscoe on Sept 10, 2020 7:06:24 GMT -8
Prost drove for four teams, including two stints with McLaren, from 1980 to 1993. Vettel will be joining his fourth team, excluding his one-off with BMW Sauber at Indy in 2007. Niki Lauda drove for five teams. Michael Schumacher drove for three teams excluding his one-off with Jordan. Senna drove for four teams. Nelson Piquet drove for four teams. Lewis is the rare exception, not the norm. Most top drivers do not spend their entire careers with two teams. That doesn't mean Lewis is all that more exceptional. He just happened to land in the right teams, at the right time. F1 careers are defined, partly, by timing and luck. I get it; that was my point. Â If he was such a PITA teams would push him out like Ferrari did with Vettel. Â After all, the driver is only a small part of success so why not find a driver who is just as good but not a PITA? Â The fact that these teams did not tells us something. Â I think the same about Grosjean; he must have some upsides we do not see or Haas would dump him. Â Rosberg is clearly a strong example of a good guy with good talent who teams wanted to retain. Michael Schumacher was pushed out by Ferrari, more or less. So, was Prost. Alonso either was pushed ou or became fed up. Lauda became fed up with them and quit. Same would happen to Hamilton, eventually, if he were to ever join Ferrari. It will happen to LeClerc. Very few drivers leave Ferrari on their own terms. The politics and game playing at Ferrari with their drivers is quite strong and has been historically. |
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Post by Pistola on Sept 10, 2020 7:09:41 GMT -8
Taking Vettel over Perez seems pretty stupid, imho. It is the exact opposite of stupid. Lawrence has big plans for Aston Martin F1. Having a 4 time WDC driving one their cars is a huge step up the prestige/serious ladder. Despite what you think Vettel will get Aston noticed. The stupid thing from a business perspective is keep Lance and letting the clear better racer Perez go. But Lance is his son so there you have it. Business.  |
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Post by Carlo_Carrera on Sept 10, 2020 8:46:14 GMT -8
I get it; that was my point. If he was such a PITA teams would push him out like Ferrari did with Vettel. After all, the driver is only a small part of success so why not find a driver who is just as good but not a PITA? The fact that these teams did not tells us something. I think the same about Grosjean; he must have some upsides we do not see or Haas would dump him. Rosberg is clearly a strong example of a good guy with good talent who teams wanted to retain. Why is it nearly every thread you involve yourself in turns into a discussion of Lewis? |
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Post by pushtopass on Sept 10, 2020 8:53:18 GMT -8
I get it; that was my point. If he was such a PITA teams would push him out like Ferrari did with Vettel. After all, the driver is only a small part of success so why not find a driver who is just as good but not a PITA? The fact that these teams did not tells us something. I think the same about Grosjean; he must have some upsides we do not see or Haas would dump him. Rosberg is clearly a strong example of a good guy with good talent who teams wanted to retain. Why is it nearly every thread you involve yourself in turns into a discussion of Lewis? Because he is a six-time world champion who has his own thread on this board? Clearly he is important. Not everything I post is about Lewis (in fact I was wondering why no one discussed Alfa Romeo's screw up with the pit lane closure rather than Mercedes', seeing as they had a lot more time to have figured that out and STILL screwed up). But he is important to F1, certainly the most important driver. If you think that is odd to discuss the premier driver more than Latifi then we just disagree. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Sept 10, 2020 9:19:49 GMT -8
And you have to remember that Perez's sponsorship backing saved the team when Veejay was dicking around and running it into the ground. Something that Larry Stroll fixed when he bought the team from the creditors. You also have to remember that he forced Andy Palmer to resign from AM after he was held responsible for AM's recent financial issues, which Stroll has also gone a long way to fixing. And Perez is the one who forced that change, making the team available to Stroll in the first place. |
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Post by Carlo_Carrera on Sept 10, 2020 9:20:03 GMT -8
Why is it nearly every thread you involve yourself in turns into a discussion of Lewis? Because he is a six-time world champion who has his own thread on this board? Clearly he is important. Not everything I post is about Lewis (in fact I was wondering why no one discussed Alfa Romeo's screw up with the pit lane closure rather than Mercedes', seeing as they had a lot more time to have figured that out and STILL screwed up). But he is important to F1, certainly the most important driver. If you think that is odd to discuss the premier driver more than Latifi then we just disagree. This isn't the Lewis thread. Back on topic, lol, Lewis is happy about Vettel landing at AM. www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/54073867 |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Sept 10, 2020 9:25:16 GMT -8
Who else? Lots of people over on Autosport, and elsewehere, and I just saw this article linked on reddit: Perez is right to feel âhurtâ â he doesnât deserve this the-race.com/formula-1/perez-is-right-to-feel-hurt-he-doesnt-deserve-this/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=SocialSnapRaces won? Surely this isn't a serious argument. Vettel has had a race-winning car every year until this year, including a few years in dominant cars. Sergio has never had a race-winning car. Just because Ferrari is a shitshow now too, it doesn't mean Vettel isn't as well. The two are not mutually exclusive. When Ferrari have been quick the last few years, it's been Vettel's mistakes on the track that have been hurting them, not the engine. People on the Autosport forums? I am asking about folks within F1's or maybe some reputable journalists. And don't get me wrong, as I wrote earlier I think Aston should have dumped Lance to make room for Vettel pairing him with Perez. But we know why that didn't happen. By any metric you want to choose Vettel has proven to be the better racer. And really there is no need to argue this now because reports are saying Vettel has signed with Aston so we will see the results next year with Lance Stroll being the benchmark. I didn't even look for a reputable F1 journo talking about it and still found one by accident ... and linked to him in my reply to you. And Vettel performing better overall on the track is far in the past, and only when he was in a dominant car that he could easily put on the front row, a la Lewis at Merc. His racecraft has always been suspect. Being quick isn't everything, and now he doesn't even seem all that quick. But he should be able to handle Stroll just fine. Great landing spot for him. No pressure, and no expectations ... two things that seem to be his kryptonite, and an easy teammate. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Sept 10, 2020 9:31:52 GMT -8
Prost drove for four teams, including two stints with McLaren, from 1980 to 1993. Vettel will be joining his fourth team, excluding his one-off with BMW Sauber at Indy in 2007. Niki Lauda drove for five teams. Michael Schumacher drove for three teams excluding his one-off with Jordan. Senna drove for four teams. Nelson Piquet drove for four teams. Lewis is the rare exception, not the norm. Most top drivers do not spend their entire careers with two teams. That doesn't mean Lewis is all that more exceptional. He just happened to land in the right teams, at the right time. F1 careers are defined, partly, by timing and luck. I get it; that was my point. If he was such a PITA teams would push him out like Ferrari did with Vettel. After all, the driver is only a small part of success so why not find a driver who is just as good but not a PITA? The fact that these teams did not tells us something. I think the same about Grosjean; he must have some upsides we do not see or Haas would dump him. Rosberg is clearly a strong example of a good guy with good talent who teams wanted to retain. They'll never push an elite, highly productive driver out. Ferrari pushed Vettel out because he was making too many mistakes and wasn't producing. |
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Post by Carlo_Carrera on Sept 10, 2020 11:15:26 GMT -8
They'll never push an elite, highly productive driver out. Ferrari pushed Vettel out because he was making too many mistakes and wasn't producing. So why did they push Alonso out? And Schumi? |
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Post by Carlo_Carrera on Sept 10, 2020 11:21:12 GMT -8
I didn't even look for a reputable F1 journo talking about it and still found one by accident ... and linked to him in my reply to you. And Vettel performing better overall on the track is far in the past, and only when he was in a dominant car that he could easily put on the front row, a la Lewis at Merc. His racecraft has always been suspect. Being quick isn't everything, and now he doesn't even seem all that quick. But he should be able to handle Stroll just fine. Great landing spot for him. No pressure, and no expectations ... two things that seem to be his kryptonite, and an easy teammate. You should really review the 2010 and 2012 seasons because none of what you are saying is true. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Formula_One_World_Championshipen.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Formula_One_World_ChampionshipGood or bad, Vettel's true worth will be revealed in the next two seasons. |
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Post by montybriscoe on Sept 10, 2020 13:44:13 GMT -8
They'll never push an elite, highly productive driver out. Ferrari pushed Vettel out because he was making too many mistakes and wasn't producing. So why did they push Alonso out? And Schumi? Shiny new drivers on the market, Raikkonen and Vettel, at the time. Who is the last driver to leave Ferrari on their own terms? Was it Barrichello or Irvine? I know Irvine left to be #1 at Jaguar in 2000. Can't remember if Kimi was dropped to make room for Alonso, the first time around, or not. I don't think he enjoyed himself or F1 in 2009. |
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Post by Carlo_Carrera on Sept 10, 2020 14:57:17 GMT -8
So why did they push Alonso out? And Schumi? Shiny new drivers on the market, Raikkonen and Vettel, at the time. Who is the last driver to leave Ferrari on their own terms? Was it Barrichello or Irvine? I know Irvine left to be #1 at Jaguar in 2000. Can't remember if Kimi was dropped to make room for Alonso, the first time around, or not. I don't think he enjoyed himself or F1 in 2009. Kimi was dropped to make room for Alonso. I think Ferrari were about send Irvine packing to make room for Barrichello but Irivne beat them to punch and left on his own accord. Not sure of the terms of Barrichello's departure. |
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Post by Carlo_Carrera on Sept 10, 2020 16:41:35 GMT -8
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Post by hairyscotsman on Sept 10, 2020 18:21:30 GMT -8
They'll never push an elite, highly productive driver out. Ferrari pushed Vettel out because he was making too many mistakes and wasn't producing. So why did they push Alonso out? And Schumi? They were trying to re-sign Alonso to a multi-year deal, and he was frustrated and only wanted to sign a one-year deal. Then it all fell apart. But Mattiachi was fired in part because of that failure. Schumi is a little bit more of a puzzler for me. I'm sure they had some kind of a performance reason though (real or perceived). Was he really being such a PITA that they'd fire him just for that, while still at top form? I've never heard that, but maybe y'all have. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Sept 10, 2020 18:24:40 GMT -8
I didn't even look for a reputable F1 journo talking about it and still found one by accident ... and linked to him in my reply to you. And Vettel performing better overall on the track is far in the past, and only when he was in a dominant car that he could easily put on the front row, a la Lewis at Merc. His racecraft has always been suspect. Being quick isn't everything, and now he doesn't even seem all that quick. But he should be able to handle Stroll just fine. Great landing spot for him. No pressure, and no expectations ... two things that seem to be his kryptonite, and an easy teammate. You should really review the 2010 and 2012 seasons because none of what you are saying is true. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Formula_One_World_Championshipen.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Formula_One_World_ChampionshipGood or bad, Vettel's true worth will be revealed in the next two seasons. I watched those seasons. I don't need to review them. And like I said, I'm not talking about Seb 8-10 years ago, so much as Seb in 2018-2020. |
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Post by Pistola on Sept 10, 2020 18:56:25 GMT -8
I watched those seasons. I don't need to review them. And like I said, I not talking about Seb 8-10 years ago, so much as Seb in 2018-2020. In some ways Vettel is like Hamilton near the end of the McLaren years. Capable of great racing but sometimes his performances were unexplainable. |
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Korean cable TV is lousy. no more NASCAR nor NHRA