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Post by pushtopass on Nov 18, 2021 5:17:09 GMT -8
So why did Alonso have to give back the position in Austin? Because he couldn't make the corner and pushed Giovanazzi off the track. He was behind at the braking point but braked late and carried too much speed, forcing himself off the track (in essence he was out of control). I guess I see this as the same thing. He couldn't make the corner and was out of control. That, as far as I understand, is a common thread with penalties. I cannot speak for past penalties and or lack thereof. We have a rule, agreed? He broke that rule, agreed? About the only penalty on Lewis I truly did not understand was Spa so long ago when he gave up the place and then re-passed. Giving back that spot made zero sense to me. But Horner and RB have done plenty of whining to the FIA over the years so no, they don't get a pass. They have at least as much power as Mercedes, especially coming into the hybrid era when they won four (?) WDC and WCC championships in a row. Not sure what your point is. It's getting to the point where you're starting to appear to be being purposefully obtuse about it, asking the same questions repeatedly when they've already been answered, etc. I think Alonso giving back the spot was justified and we should see more of it, as in the case of Max in Brazil, and Lewis in Austin 2015, and Lewis in Monaco 2016, cutting the hairpin while defending from RIC, and lots of others ... But I do think it would be very poor form to start penalizing it in the middle of a tense WDC battle with just a handful of races left, and after so many including Lewis have gotten away with this kind of thing already, and in a season where the WDC would pretty much be wrapped up by now had Max not been taken out twice by Mercs in races where Lewis finished P1 and P2. It's something that should start before a season starts and should be consistent throughout. So to be clear; you are saying that rules should be applied randomly. Got it. |
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Post by snuffmoviestar on Nov 18, 2021 5:50:52 GMT -8
Not sure what your point is. It's getting to the point where you're starting to appear to be being purposefully obtuse about it, asking the same questions repeatedly when they've already been answered, etc. I think Alonso giving back the spot was justified and we should see more of it, as in the case of Max in Brazil, and Lewis in Austin 2015, and Lewis in Monaco 2016, cutting the hairpin while defending from RIC, and lots of others ... But I do think it would be very poor form to start penalizing it in the middle of a tense WDC battle with just a handful of races left, and after so many including Lewis have gotten away with this kind of thing already, and in a season where the WDC would pretty much be wrapped up by now had Max not been taken out twice by Mercs in races where Lewis finished P1 and P2. It's something that should start before a season starts and should be consistent throughout. So to be clear; you are saying that rules should be applied randomly. Got it. I think the regulations shouldn't be broken. The Stewards have the authority to interpret them on a case by case basis. IMO... it's never random. |
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Post by snuffmoviestar on Nov 18, 2021 5:58:47 GMT -8
Yep. It would be a pretty big deal for Max & would hurt RBR in the WCC as well, which are the only reasons for Merc's histrionics. It would also be a fair amount of bullshit, since Max knew he was not gonna catch Lewis, and he knew Bottas was no threat, and he had been told the incident wasn't even under investigation. Because of all that, he was just cruising to the finish at the end and could easily have maintained a greater than 5 second gap. The gloves are off and diplomacy has ended per Toto. This season has much more entertaining than I expect expected. |
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Post by mmi16 on Nov 18, 2021 6:22:08 GMT -8
So to be clear; you are saying that rules should be applied randomly. Got it. I think the regulations shouldn't be broken. The Stewards have the authority to interpret them on a case by case basis. IMO... it's never random. The Stewards decisions are random. |
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jfme
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Post by jfme on Nov 18, 2021 6:25:39 GMT -8
Nico stayed more on the track at Austria than Lewis did at COTA. Same with Nico at Hockenheim on Max. Yet Lewis wasn't even investigated while Nico was penalized each time. Staying on track doesn't matter. It's still forcing a guy off, even if you keep a wheel on the track, esp when you're making zero attempt to follow the racing line, which is exactly what both Lewis and Nico did in Austin and Austria. You can't seem to separate the two for some reason. And no, it's not the same, really, between Merc and anyone else complaining, precisley because Merc have had every advantage throughout and well before this PU era, and have lobbied hard & succeeded in hamstringing others' attempts to claw back their huge head start. Merc has maneuvered into a position of having a ridiculously dominant stranglehold on F1 for 7 years. Now they see it may be coming to an end, and are acting out like a mad king. Add to that the fact that their golden boy does the same shit and rarely gets even a slap on the wrist, and it's not even close to being the same. Because he couldn't make the corner and pushed Giovanazzi off the track. He was behind at the braking point but braked late and carried too much speed, forcing himself off the track (in essence he was out of control). I guess I see this as the same thing. He couldn't make the corner and was out of control. That, as far as I understand, is a common thread with penalties. I cannot speak for past penalties and or lack thereof. We have a rule, agreed? He broke that rule, agreed? About the only penalty on Lewis I truly did not understand was Spa so long ago when he gave up the place and then re-passed. Giving back that spot made zero sense to me. But Horner and RB have done plenty of whining to the FIA over the years so no, they don't get a pass. They have at least as much power as Mercedes, especially coming into the hybrid era when they won four (?) WDC and WCC championships in a row. Interesting point, but in Alonso's case the FIA instructed the team for Alonso to give the spot back. They did not instruct Max to give the spot back so apples and oranges. For the sake of consistency and precedent, drivers have been given penalties as follows for close clashes: Causing a collision = 10 points Gaining an advantage = 5 points or give spot back. Max did not cause a collision or gained an advantage. And even if its argued he did, he cannot give the spot back, Hamilton won. |
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Post by pushtopass on Nov 18, 2021 7:26:05 GMT -8
So why did Alonso have to give back the position in Austin? Because he couldn't make the corner and pushed Giovanazzi off the track. He was behind at the braking point but braked late and carried too much speed, forcing himself off the track (in essence he was out of control). I guess I see this as the same thing. He couldn't make the corner and was out of control. That, as far as I understand, is a common thread with penalties. I cannot speak for past penalties and or lack thereof. We have a rule, agreed? He broke that rule, agreed? About the only penalty on Lewis I truly did not understand was Spa so long ago when he gave up the place and then re-passed. Giving back that spot made zero sense to me. But Horner and RB have done plenty of whining to the FIA over the years so no, they don't get a pass. They have at least as much power as Mercedes, especially coming into the hybrid era when they won four (?) WDC and WCC championships in a row. Interesting point, but in Alonso's case the FIA instructed the team for Alonso to give the spot back. They did not instruct Max to give the spot back so apples and oranges. For the sake of consistency and precedent, drivers have been given penalties as follows for close clashes: Causing a collision = 10 points Gaining an advantage = 5 points or give spot back. Max did not cause a collision or gained an advantage. And even if its argued he did, he cannot give the spot back, Hamilton won. I thought Max gained a clear advantage; if he'd have braked at the appropriate point so he wasn't out of control going around the corner then Hamilton, who did brake sufficiently to make the corner, likely would have remained ahead as he was at the braking point (his tires were fresher). Max entered the braking zone behind and emerged ahead by going off the track. I would agree that at this point it is a waste but I was surprised the stewards brushed it off so quickly given they didn't have the data. But the basics of the two situations (Alonso/Giovanazzi and Max/Lewis) were essentially the same as they happened; a driver on the inside pushing the outside car wide because they braked too late to stay in control and make the corner within track limits. I get that stewards are inconsistent and it was a championship and Lewis passed him eventually anyway, but the immediate brush off by the stewards seemed odd given that it seemed a clear breach of the rules. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Nov 18, 2021 7:42:57 GMT -8
Not sure what your point is. It's getting to the point where you're starting to appear to be being purposefully obtuse about it, asking the same questions repeatedly when they've already been answered, etc. I think Alonso giving back the spot was justified and we should see more of it, as in the case of Max in Brazil, and Lewis in Austin 2015, and Lewis in Monaco 2016, cutting the hairpin while defending from RIC, and lots of others ... But I do think it would be very poor form to start penalizing it in the middle of a tense WDC battle with just a handful of races left, and after so many including Lewis have gotten away with this kind of thing already, and in a season where the WDC would pretty much be wrapped up by now had Max not been taken out twice by Mercs in races where Lewis finished P1 and P2. It's something that should start before a season starts and should be consistent throughout. So to be clear; you are saying that rules should be applied randomly. Got it. That's a bullshit, disingenuous, and lazy response, and you know it. I've said repeatedly and exceedingly clearly that what I want is consistency, but suddenly enforcing the rule on Max in the middle of a tight WDC when others, including the guy he's up against, have gotten away with it so many times --- is not consistency. Consistency is enforcing the rules consistently starting at the beginning of a season and continuing to do so - and you know that. Keep putting words in my mouth and acting like you can't understand what I'm saying all you want, but it's not a good look. What you want is for it to be enforced now on Max because it helps Lewis now. There is zero chance you wanted a penalty on Lewis when he forced Nico off. |
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Post by pushtopass on Nov 18, 2021 9:02:22 GMT -8
So to be clear; you are saying that rules should be applied randomly. Got it. What you want is for it to be enforced now on Max because it helps Lewis now. There is zero chance you wanted a penalty on Lewis when he forced Nico off. speaking of a bullshit, disingenuous response that puts words into someone else's mouth. This infraction has been enforced plenty this year already, as I think we agree, so this wouldn't be some first enforcement of an obscure rule that hasn't been enforced very recently. I also want consistency. To assume I haven't wanted rules applied in the past is incorrect (I might disagree with the interpretation of that situation, but I am fine with "rules are rules" like with, for example, the 0.2mm discrepancy and the lack of fuel for Vettel). One could likewise assume that you do NOT want it enforced now because it hurts Lewis (or MB) now and but supported penalizing Lewis when he forced Nico off. Is that correct? Did you want Lewis penalized for forcing Nico off? If so, why do you not want Max penalized for forcing Lewis off? |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Nov 18, 2021 11:35:39 GMT -8
What you want is for it to be enforced now on Max because it helps Lewis now. There is zero chance you wanted a penalty on Lewis when he forced Nico off. speaking of a bullshit, disingenuous response that puts words into someone else's mouth. This infraction has been enforced plenty this year already, as I think we agree, so this wouldn't be some first enforcement of an obscure rule that hasn't been enforced very recently. I also want consistency. To assume I haven't wanted rules applied in the past is incorrect (I might disagree with the interpretation of that situation, but I am fine with "rules are rules" like with, for example, the 0.2mm discrepancy and the lack of fuel for Vettel). One could likewise assume that you do NOT want it enforced now because it hurts Lewis (or MB) now and but supported penalizing Lewis when he forced Nico off. Is that correct? Did you want Lewis penalized for forcing Nico off? If so, why do you not want Max penalized for forcing Lewis off? Tit for tat. You don't like it, right? Well, that's what you've been doing the entire discussion, so unless you want to have an intellectually honest discussion (which you haven't been doing so far), then we're done here. I've supported penalizing everyone who's done it to someone else, and to be clear, it's been let go FAR more than it's been penalized, this season included. So if you want consistency, then NOT penalizing this incident comes closer to that than penalizing it does. What I'm not in favor of is penalizing a driver after a race is long over, when the incident wasn't even deemed worthy of an investigation during the race, and where the driver in question was told that very information, leading him to cruise home, conserving the car as he should. And because of all the other reasons I've already stated. This is something that needs to be enforced consistently from the beginning of the season through the end of it, not just applied randomly here and there, when multiple people are doing it numerous times in every race. You don't get consistency by suddenly cracking down with 3 races to go in the season. That's the opposite of consistency. |
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Post by mmi16 on Nov 18, 2021 13:06:52 GMT -8
If you don't want a area to be driven upon - don't pave it.
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Post by struns on Nov 18, 2021 13:08:07 GMT -8
You two should chill for awhile before one of you blow your head gasket.... this is ...  |
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Post by pushtopass on Nov 18, 2021 13:13:09 GMT -8
Two things; the fact that it wasn't deemed worthy of an investigation during the race is probably my main issue. Clearly this violated the rules and it impacted the running order at the time it happened (plus they admitted they made that decision without key information). Second, this rule has been enforced many times this season, including (as discussed) Alonso in Austin. And were you going to answer my question; did you support penalizing Lewis when he forced Nico off? The fact that you recall this incident from years ago gives me a hint. I think I have been consistent; I don't think I have ever supported the non-application of rules. If you think I have, then please let me know. Thanks!
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Post by hairyscotsman on Nov 18, 2021 13:42:51 GMT -8
Two things; the fact that it wasn't deemed worthy of an investigation during the race is probably my main issue. Clearly this violated the rules and it impacted the running order at the time it happened (plus they admitted they made that decision without key information). Second, this rule has been enforced many times this season, including (as discussed) Alonso in Austin. And were you going to answer my question; did you support penalizing Lewis when he forced Nico off? The fact that you recall this incident from years ago gives me a hint. I think I have been consistent; I don't think I have ever supported the non-application of rules. If you think I have, then please let me know. Thanks! Already answered. Try to keep the fuck up. There's no point continuing this discussion as you obviously have no interest in an honest discussion. Hell, you either haven't been reading most of my posts, or you're just ignoring the bits you don't want to hear, and besides, Struns says so. |
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Post by boiler on Nov 18, 2021 14:16:03 GMT -8
Two things; the fact that it wasn't deemed worthy of an investigation during the race is probably my main issue. Clearly this violated the rules and it impacted the running order at the time it happened (plus they admitted they made that decision without key information). Second, this rule has been enforced many times this season, including (as discussed) Alonso in Austin. And were you going to answer my question; did you support penalizing Lewis when he forced Nico off? The fact that you recall this incident from years ago gives me a hint. I think I have been consistent; I don't think I have ever supported the non-application of rules. If you think I have, then please let me know. Thanks! Already answered. Try to keep the fuck up. There's no point continuing this discussion as you obviously have no interest in an honest discussion. Hell, you either haven't been reading most of my posts, or you're just ignoring the bits you don't want to hear, and besides, Struns says so. Block him thats what i did |
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Post by snuffmoviestar on Nov 18, 2021 14:33:22 GMT -8
Already answered. Try to keep the fuck up. There's no point continuing this discussion as you obviously have no interest in an honest discussion. Hell, you either haven't been reading most of my posts, or you're just ignoring the bits you don't want to hear, and besides, Struns says so. Block him thats what i did I blocked Struns too. |
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Post by pushtopass on Nov 18, 2021 14:55:33 GMT -8
Two things; the fact that it wasn't deemed worthy of an investigation during the race is probably my main issue. Clearly this violated the rules and it impacted the running order at the time it happened (plus they admitted they made that decision without key information). Second, this rule has been enforced many times this season, including (as discussed) Alonso in Austin. And were you going to answer my question; did you support penalizing Lewis when he forced Nico off? The fact that you recall this incident from years ago gives me a hint. I think I have been consistent; I don't think I have ever supported the non-application of rules. If you think I have, then please let me know. Thanks! Already answered. Try to keep the fuck up. There's no point continuing this discussion as you obviously have no interest in an honest discussion. Hell, you either haven't been reading most of my posts, or you're just ignoring the bits you don't want to hear, and besides, Struns says so. you said you supported penalizing everyone, but somehow not here. Oh well. |
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Post by struns on Nov 18, 2021 15:08:15 GMT -8
Block him thats what i did I blocked Struns too. Phuckyou drummer boy...  |
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Post by mikey on Nov 18, 2021 16:45:50 GMT -8
^  |
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Post by Boomer on Nov 18, 2021 17:27:24 GMT -8
^ |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Nov 18, 2021 19:34:51 GMT -8
Already answered. Try to keep the fuck up. There's no point continuing this discussion as you obviously have no interest in an honest discussion. Hell, you either haven't been reading most of my posts, or you're just ignoring the bits you don't want to hear, and besides, Struns says so. you said you supported penalizing everyone, but somehow not here. Oh well. Which I explained repeatedly, as you well know. Same shit, different post. LOL. You simply cannot argue your point in an honest way, without straw men, putting words in others' mouths, purposeful obtuseness, etc. It's pretty bizarre. |
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Korean cable TV is lousy. no more NASCAR nor NHRA