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Post by mmi16 on Nov 17, 2021 9:41:12 GMT -8
Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Getting rid of the gravel traps has created this. What is the penalty for going over the track limits here. Nothing, but I can actually go FASTER, a racer is going to do that every time. The curbs do not stop them, we need to do something. Armco barriers seem to keep them honest. <sarcasm> sure, but that's not the situation. but that is EXACTLY the situation - painted lines are not limits to the racing surface. If a racer has suitable surface they are going to use it. Tracks enforce their own limits, with prejudice. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Nov 17, 2021 9:42:25 GMT -8
It's common to see drivers have to give up a position they got by going off track. What's not at all common in F1 - for some unexplained reason - is drivers having to give up the spot when they've gone off track while defending. Lewis has benefited greatly from that in the past and it seems that now Max has as well. but Lewis had passed him on the straight. he was fully ahead. And Lewis was the attacking driver at COTA. And again, I clearly didn't say Max's move wasn't worthy of a penalty. I'm talking about the over the top reaction to it by Merc, and all the fans saying this must be penalized now, when they didn't give a shit about it before. And while I think Max's move is worthy of a penalty, penalizing Max for it there near the end of a tense WDC battle, while others (including Lewis) have gotten away with it ad nauseum for years, would be a very poor choice, imho. What needs to happen - as I've said before with this and other rules that aren't being enforced consistently - is that the rules and their enforcement need to be clearly delineated before the season starts, and then they need to be enforced with clear, consistent penalties strong enough to discourage infractions. |
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Post by pushtopass on Nov 17, 2021 9:48:41 GMT -8
sure, but that's not the situation. but that is EXACTLY the situation - painted lines are not limits to the racing surface. If a racer has suitable surface they are going to use it. Tracks enforce their own limits, with prejudice. The rules do not allow it. That is the only aspect that counts. Otherwise Paul Ricard would be a crazy race. |
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Post by pushtopass on Nov 17, 2021 9:51:11 GMT -8
but Lewis had passed him on the straight. he was fully ahead. And Lewis was the attacking driver at COTA. And again, I clearly didn't say Max's move wasn't worthy of a penalty. I'm talking about the over the top reaction to it by Merc, and all the fans saying this must be penalized now, when they didn't give a shit about it before. And while I think Max's move is worthy of a penalty, penalizing Max for it there near the end of a tense WDC battle, while others (including Lewis) have gotten away with it ad nauseum for years, would be a very poor choice, imho. What needs to happen - as I've said before with this and other rules that aren't being enforced consistently - is that the rules and their enforcement need to be clearly delineated before the season starts, and then they need to be enforced with clear, consistent penalties strong enough to discourage infractions. Again, is that any different that RB whining about Lewis and now saying "this is just racing"? It has always been thus. Sure, Merc is hypocritical but show me a racing team that doesn't do exactly the same thing all the time. And again, Lewis stayed on the track at COTA, which means his speed in the corner was appropriate. Max did not make the corner, divebombing from behind to an extent that he could not make the corner. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Nov 17, 2021 10:01:46 GMT -8
And Lewis was the attacking driver at COTA. And again, I clearly didn't say Max's move wasn't worthy of a penalty. I'm talking about the over the top reaction to it by Merc, and all the fans saying this must be penalized now, when they didn't give a shit about it before. And while I think Max's move is worthy of a penalty, penalizing Max for it there near the end of a tense WDC battle, while others (including Lewis) have gotten away with it ad nauseum for years, would be a very poor choice, imho. What needs to happen - as I've said before with this and other rules that aren't being enforced consistently - is that the rules and their enforcement need to be clearly delineated before the season starts, and then they need to be enforced with clear, consistent penalties strong enough to discourage infractions. Again, is that any different that RB whining about Lewis and now saying "this is just racing"? It has always been thus. Sure, Merc is hypocritical but show me a racing team that doesn't do exactly the same thing all the time. And again, Lewis stayed on the track at COTA, which means his speed in the corner was appropriate. Max did not make the corner, divebombing from behind to an extent that he could not make the corner. Nico stayed more on the track at Austria than Lewis did at COTA. Same with Nico at Hockenheim on Max. Yet Lewis wasn't even investigated while Nico was penalized each time. Staying on track doesn't matter. It's still forcing a guy off, even if you keep a wheel on the track, esp when you're making zero attempt to follow the racing line, which is exactly what both Lewis and Nico did in Austin and Austria. You can't seem to separate the two for some reason. And no, it's not the same, really, between Merc and anyone else complaining, precisley because Merc have had every advantage throughout and well before this PU era, and have lobbied hard & succeeded in hamstringing others' attempts to claw back their huge head start. Merc has maneuvered into a position of having a ridiculously dominant stranglehold on F1 for 7 years. Now they see it may be coming to an end, and are acting out like a mad king. Add to that the fact that their golden boy does the same shit and rarely gets even a slap on the wrist, and it's not even close to being the same. |
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Post by struns on Nov 17, 2021 10:51:29 GMT -8
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Post by mmi16 on Nov 17, 2021 13:03:26 GMT -8
but that is EXACTLY the situation - painted lines are not limits to the racing surface. If a racer has suitable surface they are going to use it. Tracks enforce their own limits, with prejudice. The rules do not allow it. That is the only aspect that counts. Otherwise Paul Ricard would be a crazy race. Paul Ricard is a FARCE on its face. |
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Post by mmi16 on Nov 17, 2021 13:05:09 GMT -8
Time for NASCAR to be the ruling body in F1.
Have at it boys!
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Post by pushtopass on Nov 17, 2021 15:40:44 GMT -8
Again, is that any different that RB whining about Lewis and now saying "this is just racing"? It has always been thus. Sure, Merc is hypocritical but show me a racing team that doesn't do exactly the same thing all the time. And again, Lewis stayed on the track at COTA, which means his speed in the corner was appropriate. Max did not make the corner, divebombing from behind to an extent that he could not make the corner. Nico stayed more on the track at Austria than Lewis did at COTA. Same with Nico at Hockenheim on Max. Yet Lewis wasn't even investigated while Nico was penalized each time. Staying on track doesn't matter. It's still forcing a guy off, even if you keep a wheel on the track, esp when you're making zero attempt to follow the racing line, which is exactly what both Lewis and Nico did in Austin and Austria. You can't seem to separate the two for some reason. And no, it's not the same, really, between Merc and anyone else complaining, precisley because Merc have had every advantage throughout and well before this PU era, and have lobbied hard & succeeded in hamstringing others' attempts to claw back their huge head start. Merc has maneuvered into a position of having a ridiculously dominant stranglehold on F1 for 7 years. Now they see it may be coming to an end, and are acting out like a mad king. Add to that the fact that their golden boy does the same shit and rarely gets even a slap on the wrist, and it's not even close to being the same. So why did Alonso have to give back the position in Austin? Because he couldn't make the corner and pushed Giovanazzi off the track. He was behind at the braking point but braked late and carried too much speed, forcing himself off the track (in essence he was out of control). I guess I see this as the same thing. He couldn't make the corner and was out of control. That, as far as I understand, is a common thread with penalties. I cannot speak for past penalties and or lack thereof. We have a rule, agreed? He broke that rule, agreed? About the only penalty on Lewis I truly did not understand was Spa so long ago when he gave up the place and then re-passed. Giving back that spot made zero sense to me. But Horner and RB have done plenty of whining to the FIA over the years so no, they don't get a pass. They have at least as much power as Mercedes, especially coming into the hybrid era when they won four (?) WDC and WCC championships in a row. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Nov 17, 2021 15:47:01 GMT -8
Nico stayed more on the track at Austria than Lewis did at COTA. Same with Nico at Hockenheim on Max. Yet Lewis wasn't even investigated while Nico was penalized each time. Staying on track doesn't matter. It's still forcing a guy off, even if you keep a wheel on the track, esp when you're making zero attempt to follow the racing line, which is exactly what both Lewis and Nico did in Austin and Austria. You can't seem to separate the two for some reason. And no, it's not the same, really, between Merc and anyone else complaining, precisley because Merc have had every advantage throughout and well before this PU era, and have lobbied hard & succeeded in hamstringing others' attempts to claw back their huge head start. Merc has maneuvered into a position of having a ridiculously dominant stranglehold on F1 for 7 years. Now they see it may be coming to an end, and are acting out like a mad king. Add to that the fact that their golden boy does the same shit and rarely gets even a slap on the wrist, and it's not even close to being the same. So why did Alonso have to give back the position in Austin? Because he couldn't make the corner and pushed Giovanazzi off the track. He was behind at the braking point but braked late and carried too much speed, forcing himself off the track (in essence he was out of control). I guess I see this as the same thing. He couldn't make the corner and was out of control. That, as far as I understand, is a common thread with penalties. I cannot speak for past penalties and or lack thereof. We have a rule, agreed? He broke that rule, agreed? About the only penalty on Lewis I truly did not understand was Spa so long ago when he gave up the place and then re-passed. Giving back that spot made zero sense to me. But Horner and RB have done plenty of whining to the FIA over the years so no, they don't get a pass. They have at least as much power as Mercedes, especially coming into the hybrid era when they won four (?) WDC and WCC championships in a row. Not sure what your point is. It's getting to the point where you're starting to appear to be being purposefully obtuse about it, asking the same questions repeatedly when they've already been answered, etc. I think Alonso giving back the spot was justified and we should see more of it, as in the case of Max in Brazil, and Lewis in Austin 2015, and Lewis in Monaco 2016, cutting the hairpin while defending from RIC, and lots of others ... But I do think it would be very poor form to start penalizing it in the middle of a tense WDC battle with just a handful of races left, and after so many including Lewis have gotten away with this kind of thing already, and in a season where the WDC would pretty much be wrapped up by now had Max not been taken out twice by Mercs in races where Lewis finished P1 and P2. It's something that should start before a season starts and should be consistent throughout. |
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Post by Boomer on Nov 17, 2021 16:09:47 GMT -8
So why did Alonso have to give back the position in Austin? Because he couldn't make the corner and pushed Giovanazzi off the track. He was behind at the braking point but braked late and carried too much speed, forcing himself off the track (in essence he was out of control). I guess I see this as the same thing. He couldn't make the corner and was out of control. That, as far as I understand, is a common thread with penalties. I cannot speak for past penalties and or lack thereof. We have a rule, agreed? He broke that rule, agreed? About the only penalty on Lewis I truly did not understand was Spa so long ago when he gave up the place and then re-passed. Giving back that spot made zero sense to me. But Horner and RB have done plenty of whining to the FIA over the years so no, they don't get a pass. They have at least as much power as Mercedes, especially coming into the hybrid era when they won four (?) WDC and WCC championships in a row. , asking the same questions repeatedly when they've already been answered, etc. I think Alonso giving back the spot was justified and we should see more of it, as in the case of Max in Brazil, and Lewis in Austin 2015, and Lewis in Monaco 2016, cutting the hairpin while defending from RIC, and lots of others ... But I do think it would be very poor form to start penalizing it in the middle of a tense WDC battle with just a handful of races left, and after so many including Lewis have gotten away with this kind of thing already, and in a season where the WDC would pretty much be wrapped up by now had Max not been taken out twice by Mercs in races where Lewis finished P1 and P2. It's something that should start before a season starts and should be consistent throughout.   |
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Post by Pistola on Nov 17, 2021 16:38:47 GMT -8
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Post by Pistola on Nov 17, 2021 16:57:35 GMT -8
WDC would pretty much be wrapped up by now had Max not been taken out twice by Mercs in races where Lewis finished P1 and P2 However, Max did dominate in Belgium without even trying.  |
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jfme
Full Member
Posts: 576
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Post by jfme on Nov 17, 2021 17:35:45 GMT -8
Given all the non-penalties Hamilton have gotten during his career on the name of "making F1 exciting", it would be beyond ridiculous to give Max a penalty after he did not cause a collision nor gained an advantage. He cannot give a position back. Hamilton won. Fishing for more punishment is grasping for straws.
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Post by hairyscotsman on Nov 17, 2021 20:03:21 GMT -8
WDC would pretty much be wrapped up by now had Max not been taken out twice by Mercs in races where Lewis finished P1 and P2 However, Max did dominate in Belgium without even trying. So? |
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Post by Pistola on Nov 17, 2021 20:07:20 GMT -8
However, Max did dominate in Belgium without even trying. So? It's as relevant as saying Max has been sabotaged by Merc. It's racing, some good, some bad. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Nov 17, 2021 20:26:00 GMT -8
It's as relevant as saying Max has been sabotaged by Merc. It's racing, some good, some bad. I never said it was done intentionally, but their mistakes benefited them greatly and hurt Max's WDC & RBR's WCC efforts even more. It's just a fact, as is the fact that Max would be way ahead without Merc cars ending 2 of his races. I'm sure Max will get lots of WDCs though, regardless of what happens with this one. |
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Post by mikey on Nov 17, 2021 20:37:14 GMT -8
It's as relevant as saying Max has been sabotaged by Merc. It's racing, some good, some bad. I never said it was done intentionally, but their mistakes benefited them greatly and hurt Max's WDC effort even more. It's just a fact, as is the fact that Max would be way ahead without Merc cars ending 2 of his races. I'm sure Max will get lots of WDCs though, regardless of what happens with this one. If the FIA rethinks the pass since the race is over they could end up giving Max a penalty that could range from 5 seconds to podium positions to grid spot positions at the next race, they could even take away some of his WDC points in the process. My guess, if they do anything, would be a 5 second penalty which would mean nothing to anyone except the Red Bull Team. In the end though it was a no harm no foul fight for position that Lulu got done in the next DRS zone for a lasting advantage. |
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Post by snuffmoviestar on Nov 17, 2021 20:51:33 GMT -8
I never said it was done intentionally, but their mistakes benefited them greatly and hurt Max's WDC effort even more. It's just a fact, as is the fact that Max would be way ahead without Merc cars ending 2 of his races. I'm sure Max will get lots of WDCs though, regardless of what happens with this one. If the FIA rethinks the pass since the race is over they could end up giving Max a penalty that could range from 5 seconds to podium positions to grid spot positions at the next race, they could even take away some of his WDC points in the process. My guess, if they do anything, would be a 5 second penalty which would mean nothing to anyone except the Red Bull Team. In the end though it was a no harm no foul fight for position that Lulu got done in the next DRS zone for a lasting advantage. 5 second penalty moves Max to third. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Nov 17, 2021 21:25:00 GMT -8
Yep. It would be a pretty big deal for Max & would hurt RBR in the WCC as well, which are the only reasons for Merc's histrionics. It would also be a fair amount of bullshit, since Max knew he was not gonna catch Lewis, and he knew Bottas was no threat, and he had been told the incident wasn't even under investigation. Because of all that, he was just cruising to the finish at the end and could easily have maintained a greater than 5 second gap.
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Korean cable TV is lousy. no more NASCAR nor NHRA
Jul 12, 2024 22:05:14 GMT -8
Korean cable TV is lousy. no more NASCAR nor NHRA
Jul 12, 2024 22:05:14 GMT -8