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Post by hairyscotsman on Nov 16, 2021 12:51:31 GMT -8
That assumes that the wing was deliberate and wouldn't have been sorted by Saturday on a normal race weekend. It sounds like it was an error and could have been rectified so he'd have started the race in sixth. I would guess that Mercedes has some data showing the wing was 'extra effective' in the practice sessions leading up to the finding of it being illegal but couldn't pinpoint the reason until they got caught and then they had an 'aha' moment. They have their own DRS gap test tool that they use when building the car and throughout the weekend, and they're an exacting, meticulous bunch. There is zero doubt in my mind they knew exactly what was going on with that illegal wing and did nothing about it until caught. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Nov 16, 2021 12:52:33 GMT -8
Lets just say that the same as with their plan to change Lewis's engine in Brazil due to the sprint race and the chance to make up positions it was the best time to give Hamilton a modified DRS wing to claim pole position with. If they got caught (which they did) then making up the positions in the sprint reduces their risk. 100% agree. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Nov 16, 2021 13:00:45 GMT -8
Max did a great job of keeping his car under control during his defense of Lewis's attack. He was on the limit. Yes; he dive bombed and gained an advantage by going off track. The only reason they didn't crash is because Lewis is smart enough to know it wasn't worth it. I mean, it's pretty straightforward to just brake late if you are a bit behind on the inside and push the other driver off the track. Like Nico in Austin when Lewis forced him off the track at L1T1. Lewis or anyone from Merc crying about Max's move is sheer and utter hypocrisy. |
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jfme
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Post by jfme on Nov 16, 2021 13:38:22 GMT -8
Once again Toto throwing his toys out of the pram. He cries as if someone just destroyed his cars during two race weekends and got out scot free.  |
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Post by pushtopass on Nov 16, 2021 15:23:27 GMT -8
Yes; he dive bombed and gained an advantage by going off track. The only reason they didn't crash is because Lewis is smart enough to know it wasn't worth it. I mean, it's pretty straightforward to just brake late if you are a bit behind on the inside and push the other driver off the track. Like Nico in Austin when Lewis forced him off the track at L1T1. Lewis or anyone from Merc crying about that move is sheer and utter hypocrisy. Did Lewis leave the track? I forget. |
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jmjgt
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Post by jmjgt on Nov 16, 2021 15:33:30 GMT -8
Like Nico in Austin when Lewis forced him off the track at L1T1. Lewis or anyone from Merc crying about that move is sheer and utter hypocrisy. Did Lewis leave the track? I forget. Yes, he did. And there's video of him straightening his wheel to do it. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Nov 16, 2021 15:46:46 GMT -8
Like Nico in Austin when Lewis forced him off the track at L1T1. Lewis or anyone from Merc crying about that move is sheer and utter hypocrisy. Did Lewis leave the track? I forget. He kept two wheels inside the line, but running someone off is running someone off, whether they both go off or not. Lewis and Nico were level, wheel to wheel with Lewis on the inside. Lewis drove almost straight on past the apex, never really getting close to it, until he had forced Nico completely off the track. |
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Post by wilmywood8455 on Nov 17, 2021 2:12:06 GMT -8
I would guess that Mercedes has some data showing the wing was 'extra effective' in the practice sessions leading up to the finding of it being illegal but couldn't pinpoint the reason until they got caught and then they had an 'aha' moment. They have their own DRS gap test tool that they use when building the car and throughout the weekend, and they're an exacting, meticulous bunch. There is zero doubt in my mind they knew exactly what was going on with that illegal wing and did nothing about it until caught. Apparently that excess gap is almost a negligible advantage, as the 0.2mm was only at the extreme end of the flap at one end only. To wit:
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Post by overboost on Nov 17, 2021 3:51:29 GMT -8
No one believes these Mercedes 'measurements'!
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Post by pushtopass on Nov 17, 2021 4:50:23 GMT -8
Did Lewis leave the track? I forget. He kept two wheels inside the line, but running someone off is running someone off, whether they both go off or not. Lewis and Nico were level, wheel to wheel with Lewis on the inside. Lewis drove almost straight on past the apex, never really getting close to it, until he had forced Nico completely off the track. The difference is whether you were going to ever make the corner. If you dive-bomb such that you will never make the corner then you have gained an advantage by going off the track. That is the key; gaining an advantage. Entering the corner behind and coming out ahead by going off the track. |
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Post by pushtopass on Nov 17, 2021 4:50:55 GMT -8
No one believes these Mercedes 'measurements'! The 0.2 mm discrepancy was the FIA measurement |
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Post by mmi16 on Nov 17, 2021 6:28:38 GMT -8
He kept two wheels inside the line, but running someone off is running someone off, whether they both go off or not. Lewis and Nico were level, wheel to wheel with Lewis on the inside. Lewis drove almost straight on past the apex, never really getting close to it, until he had forced Nico completely off the track. The difference is whether you were going to ever make the corner. If you dive-bomb such that you will never make the corner then you have gained an advantage by going off the track. That is the key; gaining an advantage. Entering the corner behind and coming out ahead by going off the track. If you don't want drivers going 'off track' - DON'T pave beyond track limits. |
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r60man
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Post by r60man on Nov 17, 2021 6:47:36 GMT -8
The difference is whether you were going to ever make the corner. If you dive-bomb such that you will never make the corner then you have gained an advantage by going off the track. That is the key; gaining an advantage. Entering the corner behind and coming out ahead by going off the track. If you don't want drivers going 'off track' - DON'T pave beyond track limits. Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Getting rid of the gravel traps has created this. What is the penalty for going over the track limits here. Nothing, but I can actually go FASTER, a racer is going to do that every time. The curbs do not stop them, we need to do something. Armco barriers seem to keep them honest. <sarcasm> |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Nov 17, 2021 7:34:09 GMT -8
He kept two wheels inside the line, but running someone off is running someone off, whether they both go off or not. Lewis and Nico were level, wheel to wheel with Lewis on the inside. Lewis drove almost straight on past the apex, never really getting close to it, until he had forced Nico completely off the track. The difference is whether you were going to ever make the corner. If you dive-bomb such that you will never make the corner then you have gained an advantage by going off the track. That is the key; gaining an advantage. Entering the corner behind and coming out ahead by going off the track. You're talking about 2 different things: Gaining an advantage by going off track, and gaining an advantage by forcing someone else off the track. You don't have to put 4 wheels off to be guilty as hell of forcing another car off. Sometimes these things happen at the same time, but each is wrong on its own. Hamilton drove Nico right off the track because it gave him an advantage to do so, pure & simple. He didn't even try to make the apex, & just blew past it off the racing line, almost straight to the kerb. I'm sure you thought what Nico did in retaliation in Austria was wrong, and it was the same kind of thing. Except in that one, Nico stayed more on the track than Lewis did in Austin. They were both wrong, but only Nico was penalized. Lewis wasn't even investigated iirc. |
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Post by pushtopass on Nov 17, 2021 7:39:27 GMT -8
If you don't want drivers going 'off track' - DON'T pave beyond track limits. Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Getting rid of the gravel traps has created this. What is the penalty for going over the track limits here. Nothing, but I can actually go FASTER, a racer is going to do that every time. The curbs do not stop them, we need to do something. Armco barriers seem to keep them honest. <sarcasm> sure, but that's not the situation. |
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Post by pushtopass on Nov 17, 2021 8:00:56 GMT -8
The difference is whether you were going to ever make the corner. If you dive-bomb such that you will never make the corner then you have gained an advantage by going off the track. That is the key; gaining an advantage. Entering the corner behind and coming out ahead by going off the track. You're talking about 2 different things: Gaining an advantage by going off track, and gaining an advantage by forcing someone else off the track. You don't have to put 4 wheels off to be guilty as hell of forcing another car off. Sometimes these things happen at the same time, but each is wrong on its own. Hamilton drove Nico right off the track because it gave him an advantage to do so, pure & simple. He didn't even try to make the apex, & just blew past it off the racing line, almost straight to the kerb. I'm sure you thought what Nico did in retaliation in Austria was wrong, and it was the same kind of thing. Except in that one, Nico stayed more on the track than Lewis did in Austin. They were both wrong, but only Nico was penalized. Lewis wasn't even investigated iirc. Don't get me wrong; I'm all for consistency. I believe the factors involved are 1) who was ahead at the "normal" braking point (who "owns" the corner), 2) was the person on the inside going to make the corner while staying on track (or did they try; wheel angle and such that can account for understeer), 3) did they collide (or would they have absent evasive action required by a person who would otherwise make the corner) 4) was the person who went off track going to make the corner. If the person inside and behind was never going to make the corner while staying on the track, then that should be a penalty if they either collided or pushed the other person off the track by their off-track excursion. If the person on the inside is ahead at the braking point then they can push wide if they stay on the track. If they are behind but draw even (such as this case) under braking but do so by braking so late that they cannot complete the corner then it should be a penalty. Right? I mean, I want rules that are rules and it seems to me that the rule is that if your corner entry is such that you have no ability to complete the corner on the track, resulting in you going offtrack and gaining an advantage by doing so, then that is gaining an advantage by going off the track and a penalty. That is why Alonso was penalized in Texas. Collision or no. In fact, the "Lewis wouldn't have made the corner" was part of Red Bull's argument for Lewis' penalty in Britain. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Nov 17, 2021 8:29:54 GMT -8
You're talking about 2 different things: Gaining an advantage by going off track, and gaining an advantage by forcing someone else off the track. You don't have to put 4 wheels off to be guilty as hell of forcing another car off. Sometimes these things happen at the same time, but each is wrong on its own. Hamilton drove Nico right off the track because it gave him an advantage to do so, pure & simple. He didn't even try to make the apex, & just blew past it off the racing line, almost straight to the kerb. I'm sure you thought what Nico did in retaliation in Austria was wrong, and it was the same kind of thing. Except in that one, Nico stayed more on the track than Lewis did in Austin. They were both wrong, but only Nico was penalized. Lewis wasn't even investigated iirc. Don't get me wrong; I'm all for consistency. I believe the factors involved are 1) who was ahead at the "normal" braking point (who "owns" the corner), 2) was the person on the inside going to make the corner while staying on track (or did they try; wheel angle and such that can account for understeer), 3) did they collide (or would they have absent evasive action required by a person who would otherwise make the corner) 4) was the person who went off track going to make the corner. If the person inside and behind was never going to make the corner while staying on the track, then that should be a penalty if they either collided or pushed the other person off the track by their off-track excursion. If the person on the inside is ahead at the braking point then they can push wide if they stay on the track. If they are behind but draw even (such as this case) under braking but do so by braking so late that they cannot complete the corner then it should be a penalty. Right? I mean, I want rules that are rules and it seems to me that the rule is that if your corner entry is such that you have no ability to complete the corner on the track, resulting in you going offtrack and gaining an advantage by doing so, then that is gaining an advantage by going off the track and a penalty. That is why Alonso was penalized in Texas. Collision or no. In fact, the "Lewis wouldn't have made the corner" was part of Red Bull's argument for Lewis' penalty in Britain. You're going way beyond what I'm saying. I'm not saying Max didn't deserve a penalty. I think everyone who forces off another driver deserves a penalty - but when people have been getting away with it in spades for several years, including Lewis, then it's the height of hypocrisy for Mercedes or anyone associated with them to be crying about Max as if he's the first to do it. It's been pretty common practice since before Max was even in F1. Leaving the track while defending is a huge pet peave of mine, too, but Lewis has also gotten away with that to great benefit in the past. I see all sorts of people now who are up in arms over Max doing what people including Lewis have been doing for years. Hardly anyone seemed to care for all that time, while a few of us were saying "Hey, you can't do that" ... but as soon as it's done to Poor Lewis, it must be stopped and that driver must be penalized. Oh, the injustice of it all!!! Also, what Alonso Austin penalty are you referring to? |
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Post by pushtopass on Nov 17, 2021 8:38:18 GMT -8
Don't get me wrong; I'm all for consistency. I believe the factors involved are 1) who was ahead at the "normal" braking point (who "owns" the corner), 2) was the person on the inside going to make the corner while staying on track (or did they try; wheel angle and such that can account for understeer), 3) did they collide (or would they have absent evasive action required by a person who would otherwise make the corner) 4) was the person who went off track going to make the corner. If the person inside and behind was never going to make the corner while staying on the track, then that should be a penalty if they either collided or pushed the other person off the track by their off-track excursion. If the person on the inside is ahead at the braking point then they can push wide if they stay on the track. If they are behind but draw even (such as this case) under braking but do so by braking so late that they cannot complete the corner then it should be a penalty. Right? I mean, I want rules that are rules and it seems to me that the rule is that if your corner entry is such that you have no ability to complete the corner on the track, resulting in you going offtrack and gaining an advantage by doing so, then that is gaining an advantage by going off the track and a penalty. That is why Alonso was penalized in Texas. Collision or no. In fact, the "Lewis wouldn't have made the corner" was part of Red Bull's argument for Lewis' penalty in Britain. You're going way beyond what I'm saying. I'm not saying Max didn't deserve a penalty. I think everyone who forces off another driver deserves a penalty - but when people have been getting away with it in spades for several years, including Lewis, then it's the height of hypocrisy for Mercedes or anyone associated with them to be crying about Max as if he's the first to do it. It's been pretty common practice since before Max was even in F1. Leaving the track while defending is a huge pet peave of mine, too, but Lewis has also gotten away with that to great benefit in the past. I see all sorts of people now who are up in arms over Max doing what people including Lewis have been doing for years. Hardly anyone seemed to care for all that time, while a few of us were saying "Hey, you can't do that" ... but as soon as it's done to Poor Lewis, it must be stopped and that driver must be penalized. Oh, the injustice of it all!!! Also, what Alonso Austin penalty are you referring to? I don't believe I've defended Lewis or criticized others inconsistently. And of course RB has consistently whined about other people doing exactly what Max did so where is their consistency? It's racing; everyone whines in these somewhat judgement calls. As for Alonso I used "penalty" as a short hand for "had to give up the place" when he dive-bombed Giovanazzi. His inability to make that corner was the primary justification for the decision. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Nov 17, 2021 8:47:35 GMT -8
You're going way beyond what I'm saying. I'm not saying Max didn't deserve a penalty. I think everyone who forces off another driver deserves a penalty - but when people have been getting away with it in spades for several years, including Lewis, then it's the height of hypocrisy for Mercedes or anyone associated with them to be crying about Max as if he's the first to do it. It's been pretty common practice since before Max was even in F1. Leaving the track while defending is a huge pet peave of mine, too, but Lewis has also gotten away with that to great benefit in the past. I see all sorts of people now who are up in arms over Max doing what people including Lewis have been doing for years. Hardly anyone seemed to care for all that time, while a few of us were saying "Hey, you can't do that" ... but as soon as it's done to Poor Lewis, it must be stopped and that driver must be penalized. Oh, the injustice of it all!!! Also, what Alonso Austin penalty are you referring to? I don't believe I've defended Lewis or criticized others inconsistently. And of course RB has consistently whined about other people doing exactly what Max did so where is their consistency? It's racing; everyone whines in these somewhat judgement calls. As for Alonso I used "penalty" as a short hand for "had to give up the place" when he dive-bombed Giovanazzi. His inability to make that corner was the primary justification for the decision. It's common to see drivers have to give up a position they got by going off track. What's not at all common in F1 - for some unexplained reason - is drivers having to give up the spot when they've gone off track while defending. Lewis has benefited greatly from that in the past and it seems that now Max has as well. |
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Post by pushtopass on Nov 17, 2021 9:06:19 GMT -8
I don't believe I've defended Lewis or criticized others inconsistently. And of course RB has consistently whined about other people doing exactly what Max did so where is their consistency? It's racing; everyone whines in these somewhat judgement calls. As for Alonso I used "penalty" as a short hand for "had to give up the place" when he dive-bombed Giovanazzi. His inability to make that corner was the primary justification for the decision. It's common to see drivers have to give up a position they got by going off track. What's not at all common in F1 - for some unexplained reason - is drivers having to give up the spot when they've gone off track while defending. Lewis has benefited greatly from that in the past and it seems that now Max has as well. but Lewis had passed him on the straight. he was fully ahead. |
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Korean cable TV is lousy. no more NASCAR nor NHRA
Jul 12, 2024 22:05:14 GMT -8
Korean cable TV is lousy. no more NASCAR nor NHRA
Jul 12, 2024 22:05:14 GMT -8