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Post by olderguysrule on Dec 9, 2020 3:23:33 GMT -8
What we have talked about here, the relative competition level from 2005 to 2013 was pretty much based on one thing. re=equalization of the engines. The thing they haven't or couldn't do in the merc era. the below quote is off of wiki. The engine specification was frozen in 2007 to keep development costs down. The engines which were used in the 2006 Japanese Grand Prix were used for the 2007 and 2008 seasons and they were limited to 19,000 rpm. In 2009 the limit was reduced to 18,000 rpm with each driver allowed to use a maximum of 8 engines over the season. Any driver needing an additional engine is penalised 10 places on the starting grid for the first race the engine is used. This increases the importance of reliability, although the effect is only seen towards the end of the season. Certain design changes intended to improve engine reliability may be carried out with permission from the FIA. This has led to some engine manufacturers, notably Ferrari and Mercedes, exploiting this ability by making design changes which not only improve reliability but also boost engine power output as a side effect. As the Mercedes engine was proven to be the strongest, re-equalisations of engines were allowed by the FIA to allow other manufacturers to match the power. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_engines |
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Post by olderguysrule on Dec 9, 2020 3:28:37 GMT -8
something else to remember about lulu. he missed the wdc in 07 by one point and won it in 08 by one point. with a car designed with data stolen from ferrari. mclyen was fined 100 million at the end of 07 for that. but they were allowed to keep their cars designed with the stolen data.
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Post by pushtopass on Dec 9, 2020 5:45:54 GMT -8
something else to remember about lulu. he missed the wdc in 07 by one point and won it in 08 by one point. with a car designed with data stolen from ferrari. mclyen was fined 100 million at the end of 07 for that. but they were allowed to keep their cars designed with the stolen data. And in 07 he beat his teammate, Fred, the GOAT. In his first year. I think Carlos missed my statement that of course F1 is not a level playing field. When it has been it was just coincidence; it is not designed for parity. |
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Post by Carlo_Carrera on Dec 9, 2020 6:01:35 GMT -8
I think Carlos missed my statement that of course F1 is not a level playing field. When it has been it was just coincidence; it is not designed for parity. And you missed my point that F1 has had much more level playing field in the past. 2005-2013 was as close to parity as F1 has ever had and produced fantastic close racing with multiple drivers and teams winning poles, races and championships. The last seven years have been the longest and most uneven playing field in F1 history. Anyone driving a Mercedes during that stretch has been guaranteed poles and wins. And to win championships simply beat the guy in the other Mercedes. Bottas as a teammate makes that simple. And again no one is saying Hamilton is not a an excellent driver, but has he even been challenged in the past four years? The answer is Vettel one season? Lewis cruises to championships. And my name is Carlo. No "s". |
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Post by boiler on Dec 9, 2020 6:18:58 GMT -8
I think Carlos missed my statement that of course F1 is not a level playing field. When it has been it was just coincidence; it is not designed for parity. And you missed my point that F1 has had much more level playing field in the past. 2005-2013 was as close to parity as F1 has ever had and produced fantastic close racing with multiple drivers and teams winning poles, races and championships. The last seven years have been the longest and most uneven playing field in F1 history. Anyone driving a Mercedes during that stretch has been guaranteed poles and wins. And to win championships simply beat the guy in the other Mercedes. Bottas as a teammate makes that simple. And again no on easy Hamilton is not a an excellent driver, but has he even been challenged in the past four years? The answer is no. He cruises to championships. And my name is Carlo. No "s". So Fred lost three championships by a combined total of eight points, two with arguably the third best car on the grid and one on a team that wanted him gone for half the year...... How many times has Lewis had to sling it out for a championship in an inferior car? |
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Post by pushtopass on Dec 9, 2020 10:24:30 GMT -8
I think Carlos missed my statement that of course F1 is not a level playing field. When it has been it was just coincidence; it is not designed for parity. And you missed my point that F1 has had much more level playing field in the past. 2005-2013 was as close to parity as F1 has ever had and produced fantastic close racing with multiple drivers and teams winning poles, races and championships. The last seven years have been the longest and most uneven playing field in F1 history. Anyone driving a Mercedes during that stretch has been guaranteed poles and wins. And to win championships simply beat the guy in the other Mercedes. Bottas as a teammate makes that simple. And again no one is saying Hamilton is not a an excellent driver, but has he even been challenged in the past four years? The answer is Vettel one season? Lewis cruises to championships. And my name is Carlo. No "s". My apologies for the name screw up; I hate when I do that! Again, I agree that Hamilton is an excellent driver. I just find it puzzling why people seem to expend so much energy denying this or at least seeking to minimize his accomplishments. |
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Post by pushtopass on Dec 9, 2020 10:27:05 GMT -8
And you missed my point that F1 has had much more level playing field in the past. 2005-2013 was as close to parity as F1 has ever had and produced fantastic close racing with multiple drivers and teams winning poles, races and championships. The last seven years have been the longest and most uneven playing field in F1 history. Anyone driving a Mercedes during that stretch has been guaranteed poles and wins. And to win championships simply beat the guy in the other Mercedes. Bottas as a teammate makes that simple. And again no on easy Hamilton is not a an excellent driver, but has he even been challenged in the past four years? The answer is no. He cruises to championships. And my name is Carlo. No "s". So Fred lost three championships by a combined total of eight points, two with arguably the third best car on the grid and one on a team that wanted him gone for half the year...... How many times has Lewis had to sling it out for a championship in an inferior car? Well, Lewis managed to beat Fred in his debut year. Here is Fred; in the prime of his career and brought in to lead a team the year after his second WDC and he is beat by a ROOKIE. If you think that is not worthy of acknowledgment then that is your right, of course. I think it is exceptional. |
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Post by olderguysrule on Dec 9, 2020 13:57:12 GMT -8
So Fred lost three championships by a combined total of eight points, two with arguably the third best car on the grid and one on a team that wanted him gone for half the year...... How many times has Lewis had to sling it out for a championship in an inferior car? Well, Lewis managed to beat Fred in his debut year. Here is Fred; in the prime of his career and brought in to lead a team the year after his second WDC and he is beat by a ROOKIE. If you think that is not worthy of acknowledgment then that is your right, of course. I think it is exceptional. in 2007 they were tied in points. at 109. kimi had 110. lulu beat him on the count back. then there was the race. maybe 3rd or 4th from the end. lulu gats on the radio and says who are we racing, kimi ( I think ). Ronzo answers back, you're racing Alonso. I mean the team principal was against one of his drivers. prolly because he dropped the dime on ronzo to the FIA to prove he lied to the FIA about stealing the ferrari data. the point is making a case that lulu beat alonso in 2007 is pretty thin. |
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Post by wayfast on Dec 9, 2020 16:04:00 GMT -8
There was a lot of crap going on inside Mclaren during the Lewis/Alonso year. Alonso has done more with lesser cars during his career. One thing he has done poorly is select the right team at the right time but I think Alonso in his prime is a better driver than Lewis.
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Post by Pistola on Dec 9, 2020 16:38:23 GMT -8
I'll wait to comment. Someday Lewis will write his book and put out his rap album and we'll all know how he did it while facing the most massive obstacles of any driver, ever.
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Post by truenorth on Dec 9, 2020 17:32:13 GMT -8
I'll wait to comment. Someday Lewis will write his book and put out his rap album and we'll all know how he did it while facing the most massive obstacles of any driver, ever. I think that you are all forgetting that Lewis had to sleep on a couch as a youth. |
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Post by mmi16 on Dec 9, 2020 21:26:12 GMT -8
And you missed my point that F1 has had much more level playing field in the past. 2005-2013 was as close to parity as F1 has ever had and produced fantastic close racing with multiple drivers and teams winning poles, races and championships. The last seven years have been the longest and most uneven playing field in F1 history. Anyone driving a Mercedes during that stretch has been guaranteed poles and wins. And to win championships simply beat the guy in the other Mercedes. Bottas as a teammate makes that simple. And again no one is saying Hamilton is not a an excellent driver, but has he even been challenged in the past four years? The answer is Vettel one season? Lewis cruises to championships. And my name is Carlo. No "s". My apologies for the name screw up; I hate when I do that! Again, I agree that Hamilton is an excellent driver. I just find it puzzling why people seem to expend so much energy denying this or at least seeking to minimize his accomplishments. The disavowal of LH's accomplishments in the present era is the same form of SHIT he has had to contend with since the first day he and his father showed up at a go kart track - and all for the same reason. |
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Post by olderguysrule on Dec 10, 2020 2:56:48 GMT -8
I'll wait to comment. Someday Lewis will write his book and put out his rap album and we'll all know how he did it while facing the most massive obstacles of any driver, ever. I think that you are all forgetting that Lewis had to sleep on a couch as a youth. I still often sleep on the sofa. Then I don't have to make the bed. :-) |
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Post by pushtopass on Dec 10, 2020 4:59:53 GMT -8
Well, Lewis managed to beat Fred in his debut year. Here is Fred; in the prime of his career and brought in to lead a team the year after his second WDC and he is beat by a ROOKIE. If you think that is not worthy of acknowledgment then that is your right, of course. I think it is exceptional. in 2007 they were tied in points. at 109. kimi had 110. lulu beat him on the count back. then there was the race. maybe 3rd or 4th from the end. lulu gats on the radio and says who are we racing, kimi ( I think ). Ronzo answers back, you're racing Alonso. I mean the team principal was against one of his drivers. prolly because he dropped the dime on ronzo to the FIA to prove he lied to the FIA about stealing the ferrari data. the point is making a case that lulu beat alonso in 2007 is pretty thin. So what you are saying is that Lewis bested Alonso on the track and off the track. A rookie over a two-time, well-seasoned WDC. Sure, it was close but he beat him. Don't forget Alonso sitting after his pit stop so that Lewis was delayed. Lewis cracked Alonso's nut, just as Rosberg did later to Lewis. |
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Post by mikey on Dec 10, 2020 5:40:42 GMT -8
Liberty had zero to do with this current Mercedes domination. This is all Jean Todt's and Bernie's fault. They have had three years to to something, anything and the best they could come up with was a plan three years in the future that got pushed a year. Merc has been leading the rules makers around by the nose for the entire period and yet people still claim Ferrari are getting away with murder.... Their problem was the damn rules they were playing by, the Teams had a rule that let them say no to anything they didn't want and they used it alot, it required unamious consent by the Teams for Liberty to make any changes and the Teams used that to their advantage. Now that the new rules are in place and every Team signed it things will change, sure some Teams threatned to leave but Liberty stood firm and the Teams caved!! |
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Post by truenorth on Dec 10, 2020 6:26:38 GMT -8
I think that you are all forgetting that Lewis had to sleep on a couch as a youth. I still often sleep on the sofa. Then I don't have to make the bed. :-) This is quite likely why you are a champion. |
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Post by wayfast on Dec 10, 2020 7:40:16 GMT -8
My apologies for the name screw up; I hate when I do that! Again, I agree that Hamilton is an excellent driver. I just find it puzzling why people seem to expend so much energy denying this or at least seeking to minimize his accomplishments. The disavowal of LH's accomplishments in the present era is the same form of SHIT he has had to contend with since the first day he and his father showed up at a go kart track - and all for the same reason. I don't see anyone here disputing Lewis is a great driver just that he is not the GOAT. I believe his career and that of Michael S. are similar. Both in great cars at the right time which is the opposite of Alonso. Alonso is a great wheelman but did a terrible job managing his F1 career. I think any decent driver would have had the similar results as Schumacher and Hamilton in their cars. They and their people did a great job of getting them in the fastest car. What I don't like about Lewis is his politics. If I want to hear someone's political opinion there are plenty of sites or TV channels to get that. I watch sports to get away from it. I don't know how F1 is racist if the black driver is driving the best car, is paid the most money and wins the most races. Lewis has driven for two top teams, well at least Mclaren was when he was there. Ron Dennis had an eye on him from the time he was a young kid and its not like he ever had to drive for a Williams type team or had to buy a ride. |
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Post by pushtopass on Dec 10, 2020 10:14:58 GMT -8
On another note, Max stated he didn't see the gravel in the outside of the turn where he went to avoid the LeClerc-Perez shunt. I was wondering about that given how the gravel is dark like the asphalt and he didn't seem to brake as much as he could have to have avoided it. Maybe gravel should always look different than asphalt under the lights? Luminescent perhaps?? I thought that the drivers had a pretty good handle on the escape routes but apparently not.
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Post by pushtopass on Dec 10, 2020 10:25:26 GMT -8
The disavowal of LH's accomplishments in the present era is the same form of SHIT he has had to contend with since the first day he and his father showed up at a go kart track - and all for the same reason. I don't see anyone here disputing Lewis is a great driver just that he is not the GOAT. I believe his career and that of Michael S. are similar. Both in great cars at the right time which is the opposite of Alonso. Alonso is a great wheelman but did a terrible job managing his F1 career. I think any decent driver would have had the similar results as Schumacher and Hamilton in their cars. They and their people did a great job of getting them in the fastest car. What I don't like about Lewis is his politics. If I want to hear someone's political opinion there are plenty of sites or TV channels to get that. I watch sports to get away from it. I don't know how F1 is racist if the black driver is driving the best car, is paid the most money and wins the most races. Lewis has driven for two top teams, well at least Mclaren was when he was there. Ron Dennis had an eye on him from the time he was a young kid and its not like he ever had to drive for a Williams type team or had to buy a ride. Basically there is an entire thread on this board dedicated to mocking Hamilton and diminishing his accomplishments. No one here is claiming he is the GOAT but there are plenty ready to diminish any of his accomplishments. Sure, when pressed they get into the "well, sure he's good but not the GOAT" but why are they even spending effort minimizing his accomplishments in the first place? Personally I think he's a self-centered person who can be kind of a jerk. He has a chip on his shoulder but probably for good reason. Racism is pretty rampant in this world and it is never easy being "different". But he's damn quick in a race car and has been from the moment he started driving. The fact that he didn't have to start at the bottom of F1 and the fact that he beat a 2-time WDC in his rookie year are both indictors that he was already operating at such a high level that it compelled a top team to take him. That right there is an indication of his talent. It's like the old bit about how Vettel couldn't win from the back when that was because he didn't have to. When Kimi was pulled up to F1 with just a few races in the lower series no one whined that he was no good because he never won in the entire undercard series. Nope; they recognized that he was a natural talent and he proved everyone correct. |
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Post by mmi16 on Dec 10, 2020 12:00:18 GMT -8
The disavowal of LH's accomplishments in the present era is the same form of SHIT he has had to contend with since the first day he and his father showed up at a go kart track - and all for the same reason. I don't see anyone here disputing Lewis is a great driver just that he is not the GOAT. I believe his career and that of Michael S. are similar. Both in great cars at the right time which is the opposite of Alonso. Alonso is a great wheelman but did a terrible job managing his F1 career. I think any decent driver would have had the similar results as Schumacher and Hamilton in their cars. They and their people did a great job of getting them in the fastest car. What I don't like about Lewis is his politics. If I want to hear someone's political opinion there are plenty of sites or TV channels to get that. I watch sports to get away from it. I don't know how F1 is racist if the black driver is driving the best car, is paid the most money and wins the most races. Lewis has driven for two top teams, well at least Mclaren was when he was there. Ron Dennis had an eye on him from the time he was a young kid and its not like he ever had to drive for a Williams type team or had to buy a ride. People are political - Sports involve people If you don't want politics in sports watch sports without people. I hear the F1 marble grand prix are fun. |
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Korean cable TV is lousy. no more NASCAR nor NHRA