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Post by Carlo_Carrera on Dec 7, 2020 12:57:00 GMT -8
Max hasn't but Russell has and the ease of his performance proves everything. The car is the GOAT. I know you want Lewis to be the GOAT but Russell ended that. I've never considered Hamilton the GOAT, but he's certainly the top driver over the last decade or so. Keep in mind that in the same car he has beaten three WDCs. How many WDCs has Max beaten? I also consider Max to be Lewis' equal. The greatest driver in the world is not going to win the WDC or even a race in this year's Williams or Haas so yes, the car plays a big role. But remember that though Russell did very well this weekend, he has been flogging the shit out of that Williams to a into territory that car has no business being. Leclerc has similar potential. But to win seven WDCs for two different teams over more than a decade takes more than just speed. This has been stated by multiple WDCs. Winning one is amazing but winning multiple is an entirely different thing. Lewis has shown that he has the mental and physical stamina and toughness to keep pushing year after year. Max probably can as well. I do not think Lewis is the GOAT and clearly if he was driving the Williams he would not be winning championships, but the multiple WDC-winning drivers have always had a car that was top notch. Winning 7 WDCs for two different teams is a major accomplishment in motorsports. I am puzzled why so many people want to belittle his accomplishments. Give me a break. Hamilton won a single WDC with McLaren and then didn't win any for five years until he got into a dominant Mercedes. Why the five year gap? It's the car. This poll by a UK F1 site found Brits think Vettel is better. formula1news.co.uk/53-of-f1-fans-think-sebastian-vettel-is-better-than-lewis-hamilton/ |
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Post by pushtopass on Dec 7, 2020 12:57:59 GMT -8
I went back and looked at the tire data. At the end of the race Bottas was floundering on hard tires that were one lap newer than Perez's hards (Perez checked out at the front), about six laps newer than Ocon's hards, and about five laps newer than Stroll's mediums. Hmmmmm..... Bottas is probably the weakest teammate to a world champion since Satoru Nakajima was paired with Senna at McLaren. I actually thought Weber was pretty lame. He never really came close to challenging over the course of the year (in the four years Vettel won, Weber never did better than third and one year was sixth). In 2008 Vettel beat Weber when Vettel was driving the Toro Rosso and Weber was driving the Red Bull. |
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Post by pushtopass on Dec 7, 2020 13:04:13 GMT -8
I've never considered Hamilton the GOAT, but he's certainly the top driver over the last decade or so. Keep in mind that in the same car he has beaten three WDCs. How many WDCs has Max beaten? I also consider Max to be Lewis' equal. The greatest driver in the world is not going to win the WDC or even a race in this year's Williams or Haas so yes, the car plays a big role. But remember that though Russell did very well this weekend, he has been flogging the shit out of that Williams to a into territory that car has no business being. Leclerc has similar potential. But to win seven WDCs for two different teams over more than a decade takes more than just speed. This has been stated by multiple WDCs. Winning one is amazing but winning multiple is an entirely different thing. Lewis has shown that he has the mental and physical stamina and toughness to keep pushing year after year. Max probably can as well. I do not think Lewis is the GOAT and clearly if he was driving the Williams he would not be winning championships, but the multiple WDC-winning drivers have always had a car that was top notch. Winning 7 WDCs for two different teams is a major accomplishment in motorsports. I am puzzled why so many people want to belittle his accomplishments. Give me a break. Hamilton won a single WDC with McLaren and then didn't win any for five years until he got into a dominant Mercedes. Why the five year gap? It's the car. This poll by a UK F1 site found Brits think Vettel is better. formula1news.co.uk/53-of-f1-fans-think-sebastian-vettel-is-better-than-lewis-hamilton/I know you want to think that he sucks but he's pretty damn good. If you think he isn't then fine. His peers seem to think he is elite and I think they know better than fans. |
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Post by pushtopass on Dec 7, 2020 13:11:16 GMT -8
I remember back when Schumacher was winning championships and people didn't think he was that good. And heck, the McLaren Honda with which Senna won was a dominant car as well, plus he didn't win the WDC for several years after his last. Did he lose his skill? It was the car. Senna is no better than Lewis or Michael I guess.
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Post by Carlo_Carrera on Dec 7, 2020 13:28:38 GMT -8
I know you want to think that he sucks but he's pretty damn good. If you think he isn't then fine. His peers seem to think he is elite and I think they know better than fans. I don't think Lewis sucks, not at all. I think he is an exceptional driver but not necessarily the best of his generation and clearly not the GOAT. I also happen to know that the car and engineers are 90% of the car performance. Lewis was beaten in the same car by Rosberg. Now paired with Bottas the doormat Lewis is only racing himself. Zero pressure, easy wins, easy championships. Not a true test of greatness. I am not the only one who thinks this way. www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/formula1/ronnie-osullivan-lewis-hamilton-spoty-2020-b1744614.html |
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Post by wilmywood8455 on Dec 7, 2020 13:41:39 GMT -8
I went back and looked at the tire data. At the end of the race Bottas was floundering on hard tires that were one lap newer than Perez's hards (Perez checked out at the front), about six laps newer than Ocon's hards, and about five laps newer than Stroll's mediums. Hmmmmm..... Bottas has to have everything just right in order to be good. |
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Post by Pistola on Dec 7, 2020 15:00:02 GMT -8
I went back and looked at the tire data. At the end of the race Bottas was floundering on hard tires that were one lap newer than Perez's hards (Perez checked out at the front), about six laps newer than Ocon's hards, and about five laps newer than Stroll's mediums. Hmmmmm..... The only way a cars performance falls off suddenly over a couple laps like with Bottas is if the tires have graining. They most likely cooled off too much during the pit stop fuck up and having to then run in traffic killed them. |
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Post by overboost on Dec 7, 2020 15:24:01 GMT -8
Bottas said he couldn't get heat back into the hard tires after that pit stop.
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Post by mmi16 on Dec 7, 2020 15:57:11 GMT -8
Max hasn't but Russell has and the ease of his performance proves everything. The car is the GOAT. I know you want Lewis to be the GOAT but Russell ended that. I've never considered Hamilton the GOAT, but he's certainly the top driver over the last decade or so. Keep in mind that in the same car he has beaten three WDCs. How many WDCs has Max beaten? I also consider Max to be Lewis' equal. The greatest driver in the world is not going to win the WDC or even a race in this year's Williams or Haas so yes, the car plays a big role. But remember that though Russell did very well this weekend, he has been flogging the shit out of that Williams to a into territory that car has no business being. Leclerc has similar potential. But to win seven WDCs for two different teams over more than a decade takes more than just speed. This has been stated by multiple WDCs. Winning one is amazing but winning multiple is an entirely different thing. Lewis has shown that he has the mental and physical stamina and toughness to keep pushing year after year. Max probably can as well. I do not think Lewis is the GOAT and clearly if he was driving the Williams he would not be winning championships, but the multiple WDC-winning drivers have always had a car that was top notch. Winning 7 WDCs for two different teams is a major accomplishment in motorsports. I am puzzled why so many people want to belittle his accomplishments. I'll give you two guesses and the first 3 don't count. |
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Post by truenorth on Dec 7, 2020 15:57:38 GMT -8
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jmjgt
Member
Posts: 3,311
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Post by jmjgt on Dec 7, 2020 20:50:07 GMT -8
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Post by Placid on Dec 7, 2020 21:59:45 GMT -8
I went back and looked at the tire data. At the end of the race Bottas was floundering on hard tires that were one lap newer than Perez's hards (Perez checked out at the front), about six laps newer than Ocon's hards, and about five laps newer than Stroll's mediums. Hmmmmm..... Bottas is probably the weakest teammate to a world champion since Satoru Nakajima was paired with Senna at McLaren. Nakajima was alongside Senna in 1987. But with Lotus. |
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Post by Placid on Dec 7, 2020 22:03:32 GMT -8
Even after the race, a new star is born.  |
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Post by kingfisher on Dec 7, 2020 23:00:59 GMT -8
This would have been much better with Lewis getting the wrong tires and the late puncture. So sad he wasn't driving today. Didn't you see him in the Mercedes Pitlane directing the tire handlers during their climactic cluster? He always knows his place in the team  Thought it rich listening to Verstappen's condemnation of Leclerc's overly ambitious move. He knows personally of which he speaks ---- hypocritically. Awful turn of luck for Russell after a most deserved victory ripped from his grasp. It was as perverse as Hamilton's luck is inversely. Other than the German GP 2019, when was the last time something even remotely like that happened to Lewis? After Russell binned it some weeks back trying to put heat into his tires before the restart and spinning into the barrier , I thought maybe the demons might now be exorcised. But the specter of such unlikely misfortune Sunday conjured up the apparition of Chris Amon. The remarks of Verstappen, Perez, Ocon, et al, regarding the unfair imbalance of the F1 driver's playing field in regards to Mercedes/Hamilton and available seats is absolutely unremarkable to one and all who've been flogging this dead horse for how many years now? And this @ r60man. Your signature line; Speed never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you. - Jeremy Clarkson -- needs amending to; --- unless your name is Romain Grosjean!  |
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Post by pushtopass on Dec 8, 2020 6:29:38 GMT -8
I know you want to think that he sucks but he's pretty damn good. If you think he isn't then fine. His peers seem to think he is elite and I think they know better than fans. I don't think Lewis sucks, not at all. I think he is an exceptional driver but not necessarily the best of his generation and clearly not the GOAT. I also happen to know that the car and engineers are 90% of the car performance. Lewis was beaten in the same car by Rosberg. Now paired with Bottas the doormat Lewis is only racing himself. Zero pressure, easy wins, easy championships. Not a true test of greatness. I am not the only one who thinks this way. www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/formula1/ronnie-osullivan-lewis-hamilton-spoty-2020-b1744614.htmlYes; Ronnie O'Sullivan is typically the last word on F1 talent. I am surprised teams don't use him to figure out which drivers to hire, frankly. |
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Post by Carlo_Carrera on Dec 8, 2020 6:49:36 GMT -8
I don't think Lewis sucks, not at all. I think he is an exceptional driver but not necessarily the best of his generation and clearly not the GOAT. I also happen to know that the car and engineers are 90% of the car performance. Lewis was beaten in the same car by Rosberg. Now paired with Bottas the doormat Lewis is only racing himself. Zero pressure, easy wins, easy championships. Not a true test of greatness. I am not the only one who thinks this way. www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/formula1/ronnie-osullivan-lewis-hamilton-spoty-2020-b1744614.htmlYes; Ronnie O'Sullivan is typically the last word on F1 talent. I am surprised teams don't use him to figure out which drivers to hire, frankly. Did you even read the article? Ronnie isn't assessing talent. He is talking about the F1 playing field not being level. |
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Post by pushtopass on Dec 8, 2020 6:52:39 GMT -8
Yes; Ronnie O'Sullivan is typically the last word on F1 talent. I am surprised teams don't use him to figure out which drivers to hire, frankly. Did you even read the article? Ronnie isn't assessing talent. He is talking about the F1 playing field not being level. Yes, because he has that insider information that we all seek. Has the F1 playing field ever been level? Why even have a WDC since it is always 90% the car and we will never have any way to tell who is even very good, let alone the GOAT. |
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Post by Carlo_Carrera on Dec 8, 2020 7:30:17 GMT -8
Did you even read the article? Ronnie isn't assessing talent. He is talking about the F1 playing field not being level. Yes, because he has that insider information that we all seek. Has the F1 playing field ever been level? Why even have a WDC since it is always 90% the car and we will never have any way to tell who is even very good, let alone the GOAT. Insider information? What are talking about? All Ronnie addresses is the lack of a level playing field. And yes, the F1 playing field has been much more level than is has been over the past seven years. The period from 2004 to 2013 there were more varied pole positions, more fastest laps and more winning drivers from different teams ever in Formula 1 history. And in that balanced performance period Lewis won exactly one WDC. This isn't about diminishing Lewis achievements. It is about putting them in the proper context. |
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Post by mmi16 on Dec 8, 2020 7:37:00 GMT -8
Yes; Ronnie O'Sullivan is typically the last word on F1 talent. I am surprised teams don't use him to figure out which drivers to hire, frankly. Did you even read the article? Ronnie isn't assessing talent. He is talking about the F1 playing field not being level. F1 is designed to have a mountainous playing field. The best cars (and organization) attract the best drivers and the best drivers are attracted to the best cars - it has always been this way and it will always continue. Having said the above, some times the best drivers aren't always the best judge of what will be the best cars 'next year' as they can only base their decision on this year's cars and they have to hope their assessment of the organization's ability to build next year's car to be the best is the correct decision. Sir Sterling Moss seemed to have the ability to leave a manufacturer just as they were 'about' to become a solid winner. Moss is considered to be one of the best drivers to have never won the WDC. |
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Post by pushtopass on Dec 8, 2020 8:08:01 GMT -8
Did you even read the article? Ronnie isn't assessing talent. He is talking about the F1 playing field not being level. F1 is designed to have a mountainous playing field. The best cars (and organization) attract the best drivers and the best drivers are attracted to the best cars - it has always been this way and it will always continue. Having said the above, some times the best drivers aren't always the best judge of what will be the best cars 'next year' as they can only base their decision on this year's cars and they have to hope their assessment of the organization's ability to build next year's car to be the best is the correct decision. Sir Sterling Moss seemed to have the ability to leave a manufacturer just as they were 'about' to become a solid winner. Moss is considered to be one of the best drivers to have never won the WDC. Yep; if you are looking for parity then this is not the sport for you. It is only coincidental that there are times when the cars are fairly equal for any length of time. Keep in mind that just two years ago Ferrari was pretty close to on par with Merc and was not far out of the WCC race. Sure, we can hamstring some teams and then you'd have a series that is not F1. The problem, I think, is that it is currently stuck between "do whatever you want" and "do exactly this" so it kind of has the worst of both worlds. |
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Korean cable TV is lousy. no more NASCAR nor NHRA