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Post by chernaudi on Feb 21, 2024 18:03:02 GMT -8
Either bulldoze the banking (where do you think Daytona's Lake Lloyd came from?), or take away all the aero and mechanical grip on the cars (and up the power a bit). Even in the mid-1980s, they had to lift in the corners because of too much straightling speed and not enough tire or aero to handle cornering that fast.
Basically until you can find a way to make the drivers have to lift for the turns, you'll get pack racing, even without restictor plates (Cup cars haven't actually used them since 2019 with a different tapered spacer). Granted, the Truck series didn't run plates at Daytona or Talledega until after 2006, but still had pack racing. But that was due to a ton of downforce and drag (ie, as aerodynamic as a brick and running in 2000 9:1 compression engines).
It was the 2000 truck race at Daytona that inspired the late 2000-2001 Cup aero package.
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Post by noonesfan18 on Feb 21, 2024 18:08:00 GMT -8
How do you fix NASCAR and get rid of pack racing? (Assuming that they would ever actually do that. I don't assume that at all, but I was wondering what it would take if they did decide enough is enough) If they wanted to? (You'd have to get it the passed fandumb, TV networks, and sponsors) Remove all aero from the cars (splitter, underbody, and spoiler) and run them without restriction. HOWEVER you'd have to build the walls 20 feet high with a SAFER barrier going as high. With catch fencing to boot. The above quote is from Wikipedia, that happened 20 years ago. Who knows how fast a modern Cup car would go? And guess the takeoff speed should one get sideways. Car owners can end the bullshit if they wanted too. They are the ones paying for it 6 times a year.
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Post by hairyscotsman on Feb 21, 2024 19:04:19 GMT -8
How do you fix NASCAR and get rid of pack racing? (Assuming that they would ever actually do that. I don't assume that at all, but I was wondering what it would take if they did decide enough is enough) If they wanted to? (You'd have to get it the passed fandumb, TV networks, and sponsors) Remove all aero from the cars (splitter, underbody, and spoiler) and run them without restriction. HOWEVER you'd have to build the walls 20 feet high with a SAFER barrier going as high. With catch fencing to boot. The above quote is from Wikipedia, that happened 20 years ago. Who knows how fast a modern Cup car would go? And guess the takeoff speed should one get sideways. Car owners can end the bullshit if they wanted too. They are the ones paying for it 6 times a year.Yeah I figured excessive speed would be an issue. Re: that last line ... how?
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Post by hairyscotsman on Feb 21, 2024 20:49:22 GMT -8
Either bulldoze the banking (where do you think Daytona's Lake Lloyd came from?), or take away all the aero and mechanical grip on the cars (and up the power a bit). Even in the mid-1980s, they had to lift in the corners because of too much straightling speed and not enough tire or aero to handle cornering that fast. Basically until you can find a way to make the drivers have to lift for the turns, you'll get pack racing, even without restictor plates (Cup cars haven't actually used them since 2019 with a different tapered spacer). Granted, the Truck series didn't run plates at Daytona or Talledega until after 2006, but still had pack racing. But that was due to a ton of downforce and drag (ie, as aerodynamic as a brick and running in 2000 9:1 compression engines). It was the 2000 truck race at Daytona that inspired the late 2000-2001 Cup aero package. Awesome explanation and good history, too. Thank you!
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Post by noonesfan18 on Feb 21, 2024 20:54:46 GMT -8
If they wanted to? (You'd have to get it the passed fandumb, TV networks, and sponsors) Remove all aero from the cars (splitter, underbody, and spoiler) and run them without restriction. HOWEVER you'd have to build the walls 20 feet high with a SAFER barrier going as high. With catch fencing to boot. The above quote is from Wikipedia, that happened 20 years ago. Who knows how fast a modern Cup car would go? And guess the takeoff speed should one get sideways. Car owners can end the bullshit if they wanted too. They are the ones paying for it 6 times a year.Yeah I figured excessive speed would be an issue. Re: that last line ... how? They want more money period from NASCAR. They can demand NASCAR go to Daytona, Talladega and Atlanta less. NASCAR isn't getting away from those track period and Gen 7 is more durable (drivers are paying for that part with their bodies). But it still adds up. But i'm thinking out loud.
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Post by mmi16 on Feb 22, 2024 5:25:51 GMT -8
Make the 'LeMans chicane' (aka the Bus Stop) a part of the track for NASCAR.
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Post by DanicaFan on Feb 22, 2024 6:20:01 GMT -8
No pushing.
If you push the car in front of you, you serve a 1 lap penality.
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Post by mmi16 on Feb 22, 2024 6:22:56 GMT -8
No pushing. If you push the car in front of you, you serve a 1 lap penality. SCCA has had a similar rule in place for decades - and can't enforce it. Rules that can't be enforced are worse than no rule at all.
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Post by DanicaFan on Feb 22, 2024 6:30:41 GMT -8
NASCAR has way more money than the SCCA. You can enforce anything with enough cameras.
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Post by mmi16 on Feb 22, 2024 9:10:46 GMT -8
NASCAR has way more money than the SCCA. You can enforce anything with enough cameras. To enforce anything you need a WILL. NASCAR has no will.
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Post by hairyscotsman on Feb 22, 2024 9:36:50 GMT -8
Denny Hamlin (whatever you may think of him) has some interesting comments about the pack racing and how to fix it. Start at about 28 minutes in & go to about 42 or so. First he talks about all the fuel saving producing a ultra-slow laps and very tight packs, then he talks about the excessive drag caused by the huge spoiler. Good video imho, esp from about 28 min to 42 min. Seems to align a lot with what's posted here. Especially striking to me is where he talks about the cars being able to run 195-200 but are running as slowly as 175 in those big packs, because everyone just keeps going slower and slower, happy to save fuel and afraid to get out of line.
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Post by Spin on Feb 22, 2024 10:07:14 GMT -8
So, there's a whole lot more racing brainpower on this forum than I possess, so I'll ask y'all: How do you fix NASCAR and get rid of pack racing? (Assuming that they would ever actually do that. I don't assume that at all, but I was wondering what it would take if they did decide enough is enough) Daytona didn't always produce pack racing. My simplistic mind says to reshape the rules so that the cars are able to separate, but what changes to the cars/engines would it take to achieve that without changing the tracks? The old GN series had the problem solved when they ran V6 engines. The Trucks ran without plates but they used less expensive less powerful engines. And the aerodynamics of a barn door. There are solutions. You just have to find one the right solution that the fans will buy into. Be prepared, probably half the fans want to see better racing, the other half love these tracks because they destroy a lot of shit.
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Post by mmi16 on Feb 22, 2024 12:50:06 GMT -8
So, there's a whole lot more racing brainpower on this forum than I possess, so I'll ask y'all: How do you fix NASCAR and get rid of pack racing? (Assuming that they would ever actually do that. I don't assume that at all, but I was wondering what it would take if they did decide enough is enough) Daytona didn't always produce pack racing. My simplistic mind says to reshape the rules so that the cars are able to separate, but what changes to the cars/engines would it take to achieve that without changing the tracks? The old GN series had the problem solved when they ran V6 engines. The Trucks ran without plates but they used less expensive less powerful engines. And the aerodynamics of a barn door. There are solutions. You just have to find one the right solution that the fans will buy into. Be prepared, probably half the fans want to see better racing, the other half love these tracks because they destroy a lot of shit. Briggs & Stratton!
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Post by noonesfan18 on Feb 22, 2024 16:18:20 GMT -8
Denny Hamlin (whatever you may think of him) has some interesting comments about the pack racing and how to fix it. Start at about 28 minutes in & go to about 42 or so. First he talks about all the fuel saving producing a ultra-slow laps and very tight packs, then he talks about the excessive drag caused by the huge spoiler. Good video imho, esp from about 28 min to 42 min. Seems to align a lot with what's posted here. Especially striking to me is where he talks about the cars being able to run 195-200 but are running as slowly as 175 in those big packs, because everyone just keeps going slower and slower, happy to save fuel and afraid to get out of line. I can't stand to hear Hamlin talk but Logano had a different idea. Change the stage lengths. Stages aren't going away (the fandumb got what it wanted and got what it wanted again), so change the stage lengths. Trust me, when the fuel saving shenanigans starts again, the fandumb will complain and force NASCAR to change it anyway.
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r60man
Full Member
Posts: 1,196
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Post by r60man on Feb 23, 2024 9:15:31 GMT -8
You know what no cars did under green flag conditions? Change tires. I am not suggesting that they require different compounds but what if they required that each team must use a certain number of tire sets (all 4 tires) in a race? This would make fuel saving a moot point because you need to pit for tires anyway. Just a thought.
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Post by Spin on Feb 23, 2024 10:56:55 GMT -8
IIRC the fans complained that during 400 or 500 mile/lap race it was too "boring". Hello!!! NASCAR came up with stages. Fans complained about that. Which really was no "innovation" since before the the stages, there were "phantom cautions" long long ago. Now, they can plan ahead.
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Post by mmi16 on Feb 23, 2024 13:42:19 GMT -8
IIRC the fans complained that during 400 or 500 mile/lap race it was too "boring". Hello!!! NASCAR came up with stages. Fans complained about that. Which really was no "innovation" since before the the stages, there were "phantom cautions" long long ago. Now, they can plan ahead. Stage lengths should be announced to the teams AFTER the GREEN FLAG waves! The stage lengths to be determined by a 'random number' generator. Stages lengths should be less than a full tank of fuel and no yellows at the end of the stage. Personally - ditch stages!
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Post by 333sps on Feb 23, 2024 14:04:22 GMT -8
IIRC in the 1990s the talk was to go to a 9.5-1 compression engine. I was under the impression that by doing so would reduce the need for pack racing. I’m no expert and don’t play one on tv, so I’ll ask here, is that right? Would it reduce the need for pack racing? And yeah, I’d ditch the stages too, it’s phony drama and the only ones who are excited for it are the announcers. Or like was said, the stages should be a tank of fuel.
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Post by hairyscotsman on Feb 25, 2024 20:33:11 GMT -8
Along the lines of what some of y'all were saying earlier re: reducing grip, couldn't it be as simple as taking some rubber away?
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Post by chernaudi on Feb 25, 2024 21:26:54 GMT -8
Just like I suggested with fixing the short track/road course package, I said the same thing, but NASCAR won't go for it, the teams won't go for it, and Goodyear and BBS will only go for it if someone writes them a big enough check.
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