jmjgt
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Posts: 3,311
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Post by jmjgt on May 11, 2021 15:40:24 GMT -8
Somewhere along the line you also have to give credit to Monaco being the most irrelevant track to actual racing. When your really get down to it - racing itself is considered irrelevant by most of the population. True, but a track you can't pass on doesn't help matters. But at least it has pomp.  |
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Post by Codfish on May 11, 2021 17:06:09 GMT -8
With Lucas electrics you would just turn to smoke. That's part of the charm - like oil drippings on your garage floor and semi-accurate Smith's gauges... |
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Post by mmi16 on May 11, 2021 17:36:50 GMT -8
With Lucas electrics you would just turn to smoke. That's part of the charm - like oil drippings on your garage floor and semi-accurate Smith's gauges... My TR-7 resembles those remarks. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on May 11, 2021 20:45:43 GMT -8
It will just be called "Hitting the wall". I trust the FIA to find places to monitor.   Is that the one where Ricciardo pressured Lewis into going through the chicane while defending and nothing came of it ... or a different one? |
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Post by hairyscotsman on May 11, 2021 20:47:16 GMT -8
Who was it who ended up in a torn up car at that chicane a few years ago? That was scary! You mean Perez? That looked really, really bad. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on May 11, 2021 20:49:21 GMT -8
Somewhere along the line you also have to give credit to Monaco being the most irrelevant track to actual racing. When your really get down to it - racing itself is considered irrelevant by most of the population. Yeah, but most people suck. |
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2021 4:06:20 GMT -8
When your really get down to it - racing itself is considered irrelevant by most of the population. Yeah, but most people suck.  |
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Post by Pistola on May 12, 2021 6:00:37 GMT -8
I trust the FIA to find places to monitor. Is that the one where Ricciardo pressured Lewis into going through the chicane while defending and nothing came of it ... or a different one? It's 2019 if that helps. Max got a little deep on the inside blocked the line and they more or less cut the chicana. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on May 12, 2021 9:22:30 GMT -8
Is that the one where Ricciardo pressured Lewis into going through the chicane while defending and nothing came of it ... or a different one? It's 2019 if that helps. Max got a little deep on the inside blocked the line and they more or less cut the chicana. Yeah I remember that one now. I was thinking of a few years back when iirc RIC was all over Hammy and pressured him into cutting the chicken. IMHO drivers going off track to defend should have to give up the position every bit as much as they should when they go off while overtaking. Lewis's excursion wasn't even investigated iirc, so I always think of that one when track limits come up, esp at Monaco. He kept RIC behind only by going too fast/braking too late to make the corner and then just cutting it, pure and simple. And of course nothing happened... |
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Post by pushtopass on May 12, 2021 10:21:27 GMT -8
It's 2019 if that helps. Max got a little deep on the inside blocked the line and they more or less cut the chicana. Yeah I remember that one now. I was thinking of a few years back when iirc RIC was all over Hammy and pressured him into cutting the chicken. IMHO drivers going off track to defend should have to give up the position every bit as much as they should when they go off while overtaking. Lewis's excursion wasn't even investigated iirc, so I always think of that one when track limits come up, esp at Monaco. He kept RIC behind only by going too fast/braking too late to make the corner and then just cutting it, pure and simple. And of course nothing happened... Not to open a huge debate again, but isn't that a case of "the person making the pass is responsible for doing so safely"? If there was a barrier there and someone late brakes, dive-bombs the inside, then pushes the car being overtaken into the barrier wouldn't that be the fault of the dive-bomber? I mean, I do not recall if RIC was ahead of Lewis on that corner, but if he is inside and behind (front tires perhaps mid-car) then the person on the outside has responsibility for not causing the collision by turning in, and the person on the inside cannot push the lead car on the outside off the track (or into a barrier). Perhaps I am missing something. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on May 12, 2021 12:18:24 GMT -8
Yeah I remember that one now. I was thinking of a few years back when iirc RIC was all over Hammy and pressured him into cutting the chicken. IMHO drivers going off track to defend should have to give up the position every bit as much as they should when they go off while overtaking. Lewis's excursion wasn't even investigated iirc, so I always think of that one when track limits come up, esp at Monaco. He kept RIC behind only by going too fast/braking too late to make the corner and then just cutting it, pure and simple. And of course nothing happened... Not to open a huge debate again, but isn't that a case of "the person making the pass is responsible for doing so safely"? If there was a barrier there and someone late brakes, dive-bombs the inside, then pushes the car being overtaken into the barrier wouldn't that be the fault of the dive-bomber? I mean, I do not recall if RIC was ahead of Lewis on that corner, but if he is inside and behind (front tires perhaps mid-car) then the person on the outside has responsibility for not causing the collision by turning in, and the person on the inside cannot push the lead car on the outside off the track (or into a barrier). Perhaps I am missing something. Yeah, I would agree with that, but iirc, RIC was just right on his gearbox and hadn't gotten inside of Lewis. ETA: Yeah, here it is. Lewis did it all on his own, under pressure from RIC. Then when RIC gets a much better exit, Lewis blocks him / runs him into the barrier so he has to back out. Not so much as an "incident noted" from the stewards, iirc. |
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2021 12:19:06 GMT -8
Repeat after me: LuLu is never at fault. LuLu is never at fault. LuLu is never at fault. Now, go write this on the blackboard 500 times, young man.  |
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Post by pushtopass on May 12, 2021 12:39:15 GMT -8
Not to open a huge debate again, but isn't that a case of "the person making the pass is responsible for doing so safely"? If there was a barrier there and someone late brakes, dive-bombs the inside, then pushes the car being overtaken into the barrier wouldn't that be the fault of the dive-bomber? I mean, I do not recall if RIC was ahead of Lewis on that corner, but if he is inside and behind (front tires perhaps mid-car) then the person on the outside has responsibility for not causing the collision by turning in, and the person on the inside cannot push the lead car on the outside off the track (or into a barrier). Perhaps I am missing something. Yeah, I would agree with that, but iirc, RIC was just right on his gearbox and hadn't gotten inside of Lewis. ETA: Yeah, here it is. Lewis did it all on his own, under pressure from RIC. Then when RIC gets a much better exit, Lewis blocks him / runs him into the barrier so he has to back out. Not so much as an "incident noted" from the stewards, iirc. I see your point but in the latter point Hamilton was just staying on the racing line, which he has a right to do. But yes, one could argue that he stayed ahead by going off course (marginal; RIC was right behind him but was not beside him; he wouldn't have made the pass). Those were different times, though; this whole topic has been hashed out significantly since then. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on May 12, 2021 12:52:46 GMT -8
Yeah, I would agree with that, but iirc, RIC was just right on his gearbox and hadn't gotten inside of Lewis. ETA: Yeah, here it is. Lewis did it all on his own, under pressure from RIC. Then when RIC gets a much better exit, Lewis blocks him / runs him into the barrier so he has to back out. Not so much as an "incident noted" from the stewards, iirc. I see your point but in the latter point Hamilton was just staying on the racing line, which he has a right to do. But yes, one could argue that he stayed ahead by going off course (marginal; RIC was right behind him but was not beside him; he wouldn't have made the pass). Those were different times, though; this whole topic has been hashed out significantly since then. Doesn't matter imho. Lewis stayed ahead at least in part by braking later, resulting in running off the track to defend his position. In other words, he moved and extended his braking zone off the track, at the only realistic overtaking spot, enabling him to keep his lead. How can that be allowed? Had RIC done the exact same thing while overtaking, he'd have had to immediately give back the position. No debate at all. I don't understand the double standard at work here, that allows leading drivers to go off track to defend, and then keep their position. It makes zero sense. They should have to concede the position, just as the attacking car has to. And then Lewis blocks RIC on top of that. Vettel later got a penalty for that at Montreal, going off into the grass under pressure & coming back on track out of control & pushing Lewis to the wall. We see this double standard all the time, and it makes zero sense. |
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Post by pushtopass on May 12, 2021 13:18:59 GMT -8
I see your point but in the latter point Hamilton was just staying on the racing line, which he has a right to do. But yes, one could argue that he stayed ahead by going off course (marginal; RIC was right behind him but was not beside him; he wouldn't have made the pass). Those were different times, though; this whole topic has been hashed out significantly since then. Doesn't matter imho. Lewis stayed ahead at least in part by braking later, resulting in running off the track to defend his position. In other words, he moved and extended his braking zone at the only realistic overtaking spot, enabling him to keep his lead. How can that be allowed? Had RIC done the exact same thing while overtaking, he'd have had to immediately give back the position. No debate at all. I don't understand the double standard at work here, that allows leading drivers to go off track to defend, and then keep their position. It makes zero sense. They should have to concede the position, just as the attacking car has to. And then Lewis blocks RIC on top of that. Vettel later got a penalty for that at Montreal, going off into the grass under pressure & coming back on track out of control & pushing Lewis to the wall. We see this double standard all the time, and it makes zero sense. The difference, IMHO, is that if someone did NOT make the overtake it is harder to argue that they could have if the lead car didn't go off the track. I mean, it wasn't as if Lewis straightened the entire double chicane and it wasn't at all clear that RIC, who wasn't even alongside, could have pulled it off if Lewis would have braked 5 m sooner. I think it is harder to argue that "he would have made the pass" than it is to argue "he made the pass AND went outside the track". And of course recall that Vettel's penalty was for returning to the track in an unsafe manner (seeing as that he was sort of out of control as he squeezed Lewis). Lewis in Monaco had returned to the track and was driving on the racing line. But yes, there will always be double standards. NBA stars get extra steps. Fouls are called differently. People with a reputation for ignoring blue flags will get less benefit if they are slow to react. I guess I just accept it. |
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Post by safetycar on May 12, 2021 17:02:47 GMT -8
Sigh I was supposed to go last year. Oh that is so sad... |
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jmjgt
Member
Posts: 3,311
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Post by jmjgt on May 12, 2021 17:12:22 GMT -8
Doesn't matter imho. Lewis stayed ahead at least in part by braking later, resulting in running off the track to defend his position. In other words, he moved and extended his braking zone at the only realistic overtaking spot, enabling him to keep his lead. How can that be allowed? Had RIC done the exact same thing while overtaking, he'd have had to immediately give back the position. No debate at all. I don't understand the double standard at work here, that allows leading drivers to go off track to defend, and then keep their position. It makes zero sense. They should have to concede the position, just as the attacking car has to. And then Lewis blocks RIC on top of that. Vettel later got a penalty for that at Montreal, going off into the grass under pressure & coming back on track out of control & pushing Lewis to the wall. We see this double standard all the time, and it makes zero sense. The difference, IMHO, is that if someone did NOT make the overtake it is harder to argue that they could have if the lead car didn't go off the track. I mean, it wasn't as if Lewis straightened the entire double chicane and it wasn't at all clear that RIC, who wasn't even alongside, could have pulled it off if Lewis would have braked 5 m sooner. I think it is harder to argue that "he would have made the pass" than it is to argue "he made the pass AND went outside the track". And of course recall that Vettel's penalty was for returning to the track in an unsafe manner (seeing as that he was sort of out of control as he squeezed Lewis). Lewis in Monaco had returned to the track and was driving on the racing line. But yes, there will always be double standards. NBA stars get extra steps. Fouls are called differently. People with a reputation for ignoring blue flags will get less benefit if they are slow to react. I guess I just accept it. There seems to be a lot of leeway at that chicane, especially in the rain. And Ricci never got his front tire past lulu's rear afterward so (kinda) fair play all around. Now go back to 2005 when Heidfeld and Webber in the Williams were chasing Fred's Renault, Alonso blew that chicane lap after lap by simple not braking anywhere near a realistic point where he could actually make the turn just to stay ahead. |
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Post by hairyscotsman on May 12, 2021 20:27:00 GMT -8
IMHO they should both have to give up the position. But anyway ... : )
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Post by Carlo_Carrera on May 14, 2021 10:10:15 GMT -8
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Post by pushtopass on May 14, 2021 10:20:36 GMT -8
For some reason I was thinking he did that while with Ferrari. Can't say I blame him but he might have gone back to the pits first!
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Korean cable TV is lousy. no more NASCAR nor NHRA
Jul 12, 2024 22:05:14 GMT -8
Korean cable TV is lousy. no more NASCAR nor NHRA
Jul 12, 2024 22:05:14 GMT -8