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Post by Carlo_Carrera on Jul 12, 2020 18:28:26 GMT -8
Exactly, the guys this year were racing for sixth place. No one (the stewards) really gives a crap what they do to each other. The standards should be the same no matter what place is being fought over, because in the event one of those drivers move to a top team they'll be taking those lower driving standards with them. Theoretically they should be the same but with the two examples detailed here they clearly aren't. |
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Post by Pistola on Jul 12, 2020 19:18:29 GMT -8
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jmjgt
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Post by jmjgt on Jul 12, 2020 20:58:48 GMT -8
^Busted, same part.
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Post by wilmywood8455 on Jul 13, 2020 2:13:39 GMT -8
There are slight differences, but pretty miniscule.
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jmjgt
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Post by jmjgt on Jul 13, 2020 4:26:09 GMT -8
^The pics were taken from slightly different angles, and there's some missing fasteners on the RP20's piece' but the bosses for those fasteners are still present. If that's RP's "copy" of Merc brake duct it's REALLY faithful to the original, probably too much so.
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Post by Carlo_Carrera on Jul 13, 2020 4:28:16 GMT -8
A slight difference is all it takes to be "legal". The brake ducts are easily photographed and legally "copied". What Renault needs to prove their case is a part that is hidden and un-photographable on the Mercedes car that matches the current RP car. Wewillsee...
What we really need is pictures of all the brake ducts on all the current cars to judge how similar they are.
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Post by mmi16 on Jul 13, 2020 4:53:59 GMT -8
^The pics were taken from slightly different angles, and there's some missing fasteners on the RP20's piece' but the bosses for those fasteners are still present. If that's RP's "copy" of Merc brake duct it's REALLY faithful to the original, probably too much so. Heard they bought them on Ebay €30 delivered from China.  |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Jul 13, 2020 4:59:47 GMT -8
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jmjgt
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Post by jmjgt on Jul 13, 2020 6:13:00 GMT -8
^He's talking about Shadow vs Arrows in that late 70's case after the latter split from the former. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrows_FA1You have the wonder how much of the 70% rule was invoked during Stepney gate. |
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Post by chernaudi on Jul 13, 2020 6:44:29 GMT -8
And all Shadow got from that was an on paper favorable injunction ruling that forced Arrows to run and develop a new car by a certain date--something that Arrows was planning on doing anyways, as they intended for the FA1 to just be a stop gap until the actual A1 could be up and running. Only thing Shadow could've gotten beyond that was financial compensation if Arrows didn't meet the deadline, which they did.
Of course, copying and copypasta-ing ideas has been around forever. Audi, Porsche and Toyota in LMP1 benefited from stuff that Wirth Research/HPD weren't able to implement how they wanted on the Acrua ARX-02 in 2009. Now every LMP1 and LMP2 car uses the idea of directing air around the front fenders rather than just over them.
The AK-47 copied the basic bolt and trigger mechanism from the M1 Garand, and the external layout and some mechanical details from the German STG-44 and other Russian automatic rifles. Most modern NATO-spec 5.56mm assault rifles are influenced by the FN SCAR, which was influenced by the HK G36, which was influenced by the Armalite AR-18/AR-180.
Short of a major rules revolution in F1 or something that influences how stuff's designed, we've got what we've got, which is copypasta-ing ideas and trying to make a better version of it, if that's even possible now.
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Post by montybriscoe on Jul 13, 2020 6:58:31 GMT -8
Arrows designed and built a new car to replace their Shadow copy in six weeks.
Big difference there was a lot of the design staff left Shadow to go to Arrows for 1978 after having already designed the '78 Shadow. So, it was difficult for them to come up with a clean sheet design for Arrows without the thoughts of the Shadow still fresh in their minds.
RP appears to have actual OEM parts in their car which their design team definitely didn't come up with on their own. That brake assembly is definitely from Mercedes. Changing out fasteners or whatever RP did does not make it their own design. Hey! Let's powder coat our titanium bolts and see if anyone notices we are running the exact same brake assembly as Mercedes.😛
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Post by Pistola on Jul 13, 2020 7:18:48 GMT -8
The new listed parts regulation for ducts really affects a team like Haas or RP. Haas having brake cooling issues in the first race is no surprise. Fortunately for them Haas isn't performing in a way that worries anybody.  |
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Post by hairyscotsman on Jul 13, 2020 7:48:31 GMT -8
The new listed parts regulation for ducts really affects a team like Haas or RP. Haas having brake cooling issues in the first race is no surprise. Fortunately for them Haas isn't performing in a way that worries anybody. Except themselves. I think they're halfway out the door already ... |
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Post by mikey on Jul 13, 2020 8:48:12 GMT -8
I see a difference there in design of the case in the swoosh going from the wheel side to the back side, not much but some. The bottom vent also has a change inside the vent itself but I have no idea if either is enough. |
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Post by montybriscoe on Jul 13, 2020 10:00:35 GMT -8
Like, someone else mentioned, the photos were taken at slightly different angles so that can throw you off.
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Post by Sabrina81 on Jul 13, 2020 10:13:41 GMT -8
The new listed parts regulation for ducts really affects a team like Haas or RP. Haas having brake cooling issues in the first race is no surprise. Fortunately for them Haas isn't performing in a way that worries anybody. Except themselves. I think they're halfway out the door already ... Cole Custer won on Sunday! |
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Post by Pistola on Jul 13, 2020 10:16:31 GMT -8
The new listed parts regulation for ducts really affects a team like Haas or RP. Haas having brake cooling issues in the first race is no surprise. Fortunately for them Haas isn't performing in a way that worries anybody. Except themselves. I think they're halfway out the door already ... Maybe. It's not a big decision with the money on the present car design already spent to stay in next year. It's more does he want to commit beyond then or what direction does he take. |
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Post by snuffmoviestar on Jul 13, 2020 10:25:23 GMT -8
IMO RP are using the exact same brake ducts they had on their car last season. That's what makes them illegal this season. They designed nothing new. I hope Renault is right and wins this case.
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jmjgt
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Post by jmjgt on Jul 13, 2020 11:27:46 GMT -8
I see a difference there in design of the case in the swoosh going from the wheel side to the back side, not much but some. The bottom vent also has a change inside the vent itself but I have no idea if either is enough. Even if you take into account the different angles the shots are taken from i'd agree the shape of the "swoosh " and the lower duct aren't completely the same. But the question is how much do those shapes change (within the same core design) from race to race on the original part? One track may need more/less airflow thru that area than the next so the shape varies to address the need. That doesn't make it a "different" part, that makes it a modified one. |
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Post by wilmywood8455 on Jul 13, 2020 12:13:46 GMT -8
I see a difference there in design of the case in the swoosh going from the wheel side to the back side, not much but some. The bottom vent also has a change inside the vent itself but I have no idea if either is enough. Even if you take into account the different angles the shots are taken from i'd agree the shape of the "swoosh " and the lower duct aren't completely the same. But the question is how much do those shapes change (within the same core design) from race to race on the original part? One track may need more/less airflow thru that area than the next so the shape varies to address the need. That doesn't make it a "different" part, that makes it a modified one. IMO, this may well be a case of RP taking MB's duct ideas (maybe with photos and dimensions given their relationship) and creating their own while running into the same issues MB did with theirs. For Chrissakes, you could accuse half the field of using the same front wings and other aero devices as much as these people copy each other. Until someone shows me an invoice from MB to RP for these ducts, there is no way to prove anything other than them being a faithful copy.
Get over it Renault. They're kicking your asses and different ducts will not change that. You just wish something you built was good enough for others to copy. Whinin' sumbitches ...
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Korean cable TV is lousy. no more NASCAR nor NHRA
Jul 12, 2024 22:05:14 GMT -8
Korean cable TV is lousy. no more NASCAR nor NHRA
Jul 12, 2024 22:05:14 GMT -8